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To: xzins
I find it fascinating that Protestants will complain that a restatement of Catholic belief is somehow an attack on ecumenism; that the only true ecumenism is an acceptance of a Protestant ecclesialogy. In other words, the only way that Catholics are allowed to participate in ecumenical dialog is to become Protestant.

As to the question of the necessity of apostolic succession to be a true church, let us turn to the Scriptures themselves. First as a precedence we can see the hierarchical priesthood established by God in the Old Testament. While our Lord railed against the scribes and Pharisees, he never denied the authority of the Temple priesthood. Rather, he implicitly acknowledged their authority when he told the lepers to go to them. Even when he cleansed the Temple he did not question the authority of the priests to offer sacrifice but sought to purify the activity of the Temple. Indeed, the Holy Family fully participated in the Temple services. Thus an hierarchical priesthood per se cannot be antithetical to God's organization of the Church.

Now let us turn to the New Testament.

Did Jesus Christ establish an hierarchy among his followers?
Yes. A clear distinction can be made between the Apostles and the rest of the disciples.

Did these Apostles exercise any authority beyond that of the disciples?
Yes. They alone were possessed the authority to celebrate the Eucharist, forgive sins, anoint the sick and give the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Did the Apostles exercise this authority after our Lord's Ascension?
Yes. It was also to them that the Church recognized as its leaders.

Was the authority of the Apostles a true office that continued beyond the first Apostles?
Yes! The very first thing that the Apostles did when our Lord ascended into Heaven was to chose a replacement for Judas Iscariot.

Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus: Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric (episkophe / episcopacy) let another take.

Wherefore of these men who have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, until the day wherein he was taken up from us, one of these must be made a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.

And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
(Acts 1:16-26)

This episcopal office would be divided into the offices of bishop, priest and deacon:
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? Not a neophyte: lest being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre: Holding the mystery of faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved: and so let them minister, having no crime.
(1 Tim 2:1-10)

For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee: If any be without crime, the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of riot, or unruly. For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God.
(Tit 1:5-7)

How was this office transmitted to others?
By coöption through the laying on of hands. In other words from the top down from those who already possessed this office, not by an act of the gathered community.
Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
(1 Tim 4:14)

For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands.
(2 Tim 1:6)

For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.
(Tit 1:5)

Thus an ordained priesthood is a part of our Lord's constitution of his Church. Whatever they may possess, the Protestants do not possess the episcopacy/priesthood instituted by our Lord and handed down through the laying on of hands. They thus are acting contrary to the constitution of the Church as established by Jesus Christ and shown forth in the Scriptures. This is a strange position for those who claim sola scriptura.
159 posted on 07/23/2007 10:39:36 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius; xzins; Gamecock; kawaii; P-Marlowe; Frumanchu
“Did Jesus Christ establish an hierarchy among his followers?” Well, there was Judas Iscariot who was appointed treasurer. So when did he do this? I always thought Apostles were first servants and that the first would be last until all receive rewards in heaven.

“Did these Apostles exercise any authority beyond that of the disciples?” Let’s see, Thomas, Matthias and Paul weren’t there when this supposed “authority was given. The seventy that were sent out in Luke 10 exercised this authority so when was it given to them in it’s final form?

“Did the Apostles exercise this authority after our Lord’s Ascension?” So did James, the Lord’s brother, Jude, the Lord’s brother, Philip the Evangelist, Barnabas and Silas, Apollos, Timothy, Titus, along with Paul.

“Did the Apostles exercise this authority after our Lord’s Ascension?” As did James, the Lord’s brother, Jude, the Lord’s brother, Paul and Timothy.

“Was the authority of the Apostles a true office that continued beyond the first Apostles?” By the time John writes the last letters to the seven churches, around 95 A.D., he doesn’t even identify himself as an Apostle even after a gap in the time period of writing 65 A.D. to 95 A.D. and he has been exiled for most of that period, nor does he identify any one in the churches as Apostles or having authority as successor to Apostles. What you had is Pastors of city churches that later elevated their office to give it more dignity than what the first seventy enjoyed when the Lord first sent them out without money or more than one suit of clothes or motel reservations.

171 posted on 07/23/2007 11:20:40 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Petrosius
For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee. (Tit 1:5)

First thing you have to do is get the correct translation...The right translation says elders...Not priests...

And how do we know this is so??? Because even your own Catholic bible says:

1Pe 2:5 Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We are all a holy priesthood...Your very own Catholic bible confirms this...Jerome's translation...

So you can't have priests that are set apart from the priesthood...Wouldn't make sense...

So, there is no such thing as a church constitution that has priests...

The priesthood you refer to was done away with when Jesus became the atonement for ALL our sins...We no longer need priests to make atonement for us...

We are to offer spiritual sacrifices to God...Not flesh and blood...

The spiritual sacrifices are prayer, putting off the 'old' man, allowing God to do good works thru us, etc...

187 posted on 07/23/2007 12:12:00 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Petrosius; xzins
How was this office transmitted to others? By coöption through the laying on of hands. In other words from the top down from those who already possessed this office, not by an act of the gathered community.

Am I to assume all the work done by Paul was invalid? Or, possibly, was the Lord the one and only "top"?
800 posted on 07/25/2007 12:18:46 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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