Then what happens when an infant is baptized? I thought that was when the sacrifice was applied, i.e. before there is belief or will. I remember there being some kind of a proxy thing, but am not sure if you are talking about that above.
FK: "But ALL of you [Catholic/Orthodox] say that future sins are NOT covered by Christ's work."
They are, but we must repent of those sins in order for them to be forgiven. That's why we have the sacrament of confession.
OK, so it looks like you are saying that Christ's "effect" on sin is the same throughout. It allows us to ask for forgiveness for sins, and as infants this happens by proxy?
If you believe your sins are forgiven without repenting of them, then repentance becomes an "empty ritual," which may explain why the Protestants may not have such "guilty conscience", but rather consider themselves righteous in their justification that no amount of wrongdoing can affect.
Actually, none of this is correct. :) True repentance is required in order to become a child of God. We disagree on which sins that repentance applies to. You say it is ridiculous to be able to repent of future sins and we say it is ridiculous to repent and believe by proxy. :) And, we still know that God commands confession and repentance even after salvation. It is part of required perseverance, so it is not an "empty ritual".
Second, a guilty conscience does not come from one's view on the salvific nature of repentance. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Spirit moves all believers to want to come back to Him, and giving a guilty conscience is one motivational tool.
Third, and I admit this may be splitting hairs with what you said, but just to be clear, we do not consider ourselves righteous in our justification. We consider that we are justified because of CHRIST'S righteousness, not our own. Therefore, we are "declared" righteous, but through no merit of our own.
Well, one must remember that we are born with the original sin of Adam - which requires baptism; then there is one’s own sins of commission and omission.
Infant baptism removes the original sin of Adam; the Holy Spirit is then introduced to start working in the baby so that at the age of reason, the child or adult may understand and have the faith so that the confirmation of the original baptism is confessed by the child or adult.
One must not mix up original sin and temporal sin.
The infant is brought to God by proxy. His future repentence is up to him.
If there is nothing that we can do to attain salvation, then how is perseverence required? What happens if a member of the Reformed Elect pull up a spiritual LaZBoy? If you say that that person was never an elect and this is proof, then that is at least consistent. So then, we are left with no exterior evidence of whether a person is of the elect or not. Hmm, does that mean that one of the elect will find it impossible to not persevere? Robot slave again?
Oh, we don’t believe that we merit salvation on our own. We just believe all those verses which spell out our commanded actions once we have the Holy Spirit after baptism. We have it possible for mankind to attain Heaven because of the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. Otherwise, unless He individually brings us to Heaven, such as the thief on the adjoining cross, or Elijah, then we wouldn’t be able attain everlasting life.
Baptism is a sacrament of adption into the Body of Christ. That means those who are baptized are His. Baptized babies are saved in that they are assured to enjoy the full bliss in the presence of God. Unbaptized babies may too, but we don't know.
I remember there being some kind of a proxy thing, but am not sure if you are talking about that above
Godparents accept the faith on account of the infant, by commititng themselves for life to raise that child in faith.
OK, so it looks like you are saying that Christ's "effect" on sin is the same throughout. It allows us to ask for forgiveness for sins, and as infants this happens by proxy?
Infants have not committed any sins. There is nothing to repent of.
You say it is ridiculous to be able to repent of future sins and we say it is ridiculous to repent and believe by proxy
No one repents by proxy. Children do not sin. A baptized child is raised in faith. No on believes by proxy.
The Spirit moves all believers to want to come back to Him, and giving a guilty conscience is one motivational tool.
Why feel guilty if your sins are forgiven? There is no motivation whatsoever. If you feel guilty and wish to repent means you feel that you have unforgiven sins. To a Protestant that is an oxymoron.
We consider that we are justified because of CHRIST'S righteousness, not our own.
You can't claim righteousness through someone else. Either His righteousness is given or, as some would say, imputed the end result is the same. It makes no difference whence came the bragging right, whether you paid for it, or whether it was a gift. It's still given to you. And those who feel righteous have no reaosn to feel the need to repent.
The parent's faith stands in proxy. There is plenty of precedent for this, in both OT and NT. First, how did people come into the Old Covenant? Through circumcision, based on the faith of the parents. In the NT, Jesus gives several examples of how he heals based on the faith of others. Hopefully, you would agree that Lazarus, for example, was healed - not based on HIS faith, but on the requests and faith of OTHERS (and His own will).
You say it is ridiculous to be able to repent of future sins and we say it is ridiculous to repent and believe by proxy. :)
I believe I have given plenty of Scriptural precedent for my view. Where does the Bible say we are forgiven for sins we have not committed yet or not repented of yet?
Second, a guilty conscience does not come from one's view on the salvific nature of repentance. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Spirit moves all believers to want to come back to Him, and giving a guilty conscience is one motivational tool.
Not sure what you are denying above, but I think I agree with your "indwelling Spirit" part.
we do not consider ourselves righteous in our justification. We consider that we are justified because of CHRIST'S righteousness, not our own.
Christ makes us righteous. 1 John, for example, states that we are righteous AS Christ is righteous. There is no indication of a "legal-only" justification. What God declares, He MAKES SO.
Regards