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To: xzins; kosta50; Gumdrop; Secret Agent Man; Alamo-Girl; Col Freeper; PrezUSA222; Gamecock; ...
Xzins, thank you for the post.

Kosta50, thanks for post #7.

Obviously Protestants aren't going to agree with the Pope and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's statement. While we share faith in Christ Jesus as true God and true Man, Savior and Redeemer of the human race (and I thank God that we do!), it would not be true ecumenism to "pretend" that we are all united on the points mentioned in the document. Actually the document does not set back ecumenism, it advances it in the sense that the Catholic Church is willing to put all Her cards on the table and talk about it. We believe what we believe because it has been handed down to us from the Apostles to this day.

I think that is why we are able to dialogue fruitfully with the Orthodox and that is, as Kosta50 pointed out, why we don't go to communion at each others churches--we have disagreements and we are dialoguing about them. Kosta50 and I both hope and pray for full communion between the various Catholic Churches soon.

Why is apostolic succession so important (and not just "spiritual succession")? It's not about bureaucracy, it's about valid Sacraments. If Jesus did not institute the Eucharist as His real presence and did not ordain the Apostles to "do THIS in my memory" and did not tell them "whose sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven", then the Protestants would be in the right: apostolic succession would not matter at all--just faith in Jesus. But if He did give Himself to us, flesh and blood, as the Bread of Life and set up a hierarchy and gave them power to forgive sins, then apostolic succession is most important even if their successors aren't so perfect. But the Apostles weren't perfect either, in fact one of them betrayed Our Divine Savior and many successors of the Apostles do so today (I'm not sure if it's one out of twelve today... it might be better or it might be worse!).

May the Lord give you His peace.

81 posted on 07/23/2007 7:50:43 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: fr maximilian mary; kosta50; xzins; P-Marlowe; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
Why is apostolic succession so important (and not just "spiritual succession")? It's not about bureaucracy, it's about valid Sacraments. If Jesus did not institute the Eucharist as His real presence and did not ordain the Apostles to "do THIS in my memory" and did not tell them "whose sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven", then the Protestants would be in the right: apostolic succession would not matter at all--just faith in Jesus. But if He did give Himself to us, flesh and blood, as the Bread of Life and set up a hierarchy and gave them power to forgive sins, then apostolic succession is most important even if their successors aren't so perfect. But the Apostles weren't perfect either, in fact one of them betrayed Our Divine Savior and many successors of the Apostles do so today (I'm not sure if it's one out of twelve today... it might be better or it might be worse!).

I disagree, friend. It is not about the Sacraments. It's about authority. Let me explain.

Obviously you point to those portions of Scripture regarding your view of the Sacrament and its validity. Of course, as a Protestant I disagree with your interpretation of those Scriptures as supporting the notion that only a priest ordained within a visible institution headed by a successor of the Apostle Peter can rightly administer the Sacraments.

If I ask you why I should take your interpretation over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate that doctrine.

If I ask where the Roman Catholic Church was institutionally granted such authority, you will ultimately appeal to Scripture (Matt 16:18, ect).

If I ask you why I should take the Roman Catholic Church's interpretation of those Scriptures over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate doctrine.

If I ask where... (you get the point)

All issues of disagreement between us will ultimately come back to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. I say this in the spirit of your comments earlier in that post. There is little that will ever be gained by dialog between us until we address this issue head on.

88 posted on 07/23/2007 8:16:38 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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