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To: joseph20

Precise language, not slick...I’m not trying to fool anyone, merely trying to distinguish religious art (which is fine & good) used in instruction, verses art used to worship. This is the same distinction Exod. 20:4,5 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them...” makes in the 10 Commandments between art, and an idol. The ancient Jews were NOT anti-representative art, the old Temple was full of it...JUST not of God, and not used to worship. The central object used in worship actually was the Ark—always hidden from view—containing the 10 Commandments and topped with 2 (ironically enough) statues of Angels KNEELING before God (kind of un-idols, in reality).

I do believe that trying to communicate to anyone who has died —no matter how holy a life they lived, is wrong. Why? The only example we have of communicating with a dead holy person is in I Samuel 28, when the evil king Saul used a witch to call up the holy prophet Samuel. So we only have one (very bad) example of communication between someone who is alive on earth with someone who has died.

2ndly, is that it is useless. Why? It’s fine to ask your friends or your mother or your priest to pray for you, as they can communicate with you, and they can communicate with God in prayer.

There is however utterly no indication in the bible that we are able to communicate with those who have died. Even in the bad example above it took a witch to communicate with Samuel—and such necromancy is completely condemned in scripture. I don’t think Roman Catholics guilty of necromancy, it is just that Mary (or St. Catherine, or St. So&so), can’t hear you—and they’re not supposed to. God always hears us, and in his mercy, perhaps he hears prayers to saints and answers some of them...since He knows His people are needy and such prayers are done in ignorance.

Again I challenge you though, if prayers to saints in heaven are possible and are so important, why not a word about it in the foundational documents of the church, that is the bible?


146 posted on 04/12/2008 11:37:49 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns
"I do believe that trying to communicate to anyone who has died —no matter how holy a life they lived, is wrong. Why? The only example we have of communicating with a dead holy person is in I Samuel 28, when the evil king Saul used a witch to call up the holy prophet Samuel. So we only have one (very bad) example of communication between someone who is alive on earth with someone who has died."

Well then you have a problem not just with Catholicism but with mainstream Protestantism. Praying to loved ones that have passed away and are presumed to be in heaven is a common thing among protestants. Why don't you go challenge the people in your own camp about that first, before coming over here to the Catholics and challenging them?
148 posted on 04/12/2008 11:41:38 AM PDT by joseph20 (...to ourselves and our Posterity...)
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To: AnalogReigns
There is however utterly no indication in the bible that we are able to communicate with those who have died. Even in the bad example above it took a witch to communicate with Samuel—and such necromancy is completely condemned in scripture. I don’t think Roman Catholics guilty of necromancy, it is just that Mary (or St. Catherine, or St. So&so), can’t hear you—and they’re not supposed to. God always hears us, and in his mercy, perhaps he hears prayers to saints and answers some of them...since He knows His people are needy and such prayers are done in ignorance.

I posted an answer to this above on this thread. See posts 42, 58, and 81. In the Psalms, the author cries and "prays" (ie, asks) to angels in Heaven. He did not get ahold of any righteous dead because Heaven was closed until the veil was torn. Jesus conquered death - those who believe in Him and live righteous lives do not die! Thus, we are not "communicating with the dead."

151 posted on 04/12/2008 11:50:15 AM PDT by thefrankbaum
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To: AnalogReigns
"Precise language, not slick...I’m not trying to fool anyone, merely trying to distinguish religious art (which is fine & good) used in instruction, verses art used to worship. This is the same distinction Exod. 20:4,5 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them...” makes in the 10 Commandments between art, and an idol. The ancient Jews were NOT anti-representative art, the old Temple was full of it...JUST not of God, and not used to worship. The central object used in worship actually was the Ark—always hidden from view—containing the 10 Commandments and topped with 2 (ironically enough) statues of Angels KNEELING before God (kind of un-idols, in reality)."

Are you saying the Jews had a special place in their religion for a container touched by God and bearing his Word? And there was nothing wrong with that even though they adorned it with gold and had it in their temple? Gee, the things you learn on Freerepublic....

316 posted on 04/14/2008 12:20:22 PM PDT by Eepsy (The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.)
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