Posted on 05/11/2008 5:40:22 AM PDT by Gamecock
Have a blessed Pentecost. it's hard to see how we can hope for the Spirit of truth while we continue to promulgate falsehoods which are easily ascertained as false. Claims of faithfulness in great things are compromised by a lack of faithfulness in small things. It would be a small thing. the work of minutes, to find what the Church teaches about those who disagree with her. That this writer, footnotes and all, did not take the trouble to do so makes this article nugatory at best.
Concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures; nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee of these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures....In these articles we comprehend the whole doctrine of faith….For the articles of the Faith were not composed at the good pleasure of men, but the most important points chosen from all Scriptures, make up the one teaching of the Faith….This Faith, in a few words, hath enfolded in its bosom the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testaments. Behold, therefore, brethren and hold the traditions (2 Thes. 2:15) which ye now receive, and write them on the table of your hearts....Now heed not any ingenious views of mine; else thou mayest be misled; but unless thou receive the witness of the prophets concerning each matter, believe not what is spoken; unless thou learn from Holy Scripture....receive not the witness of man."
How is it that those anti-scripturalists always ignore writings like these in their polemics. As the words of the church fathers reveal, the earliest tradition of the church was sola scriptura. It was a universal [catholic] understanding and to deny that is to show oneself to be truly anti-catholic.
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“For the Roman Catholic, the church is ultimate truth and authority, not Scripture. Whereas the Roman Catholic Church affirms the full inspiration of Scripture, it is not the only truth or ultimate and final authority. The ultimate and final authority is the church.”
A very long read but I have to ask (any Catholic) how accurate the above statement is. Do you really place your beauracracy above the Lord?
>>Do you really place your beauracracy above the Lord?<<
Nope, not at all.
If the Vatican said, it’s okay to kill your neighbor, (which they wouldn’t but it’s the only example I can come up with) then we would say NO WAY.
I had a problem for a long time with Romans 9:13-21. I prayed for wisdom but still came to the conclusion that I could do everything right, yet God could condemn me in the end (much like the Muslims, I found out)
It took a Catholic Bible study to set me straight.
I don’t trust my own thoughts about it. I did pray for wisdom, that the Spirit would show me the way, and He did, straight to Catholic Bible study. I would rather leave it to much more scholarly men than myself.
And I have to add that I am going to see “Ironman” for Mother’s Day so if you don’t get an answer back, please don’t think I’m ignoring you!
“I had a problem for a long time with Romans 9:13-21. I prayed for wisdom but still came to the conclusion that I could do everything right”
I reject that. The whole reason that Christ came and died for us is because we cannot possibly “do everything right.” In fact, I believe that unless it is done through Him, NOTHING can be done right by man.
Well, that just proves the point!
What is amazing about Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma is that despite being the container of almost 2000 years of infallible rulings, it fits in the palm of your hand. I love that quote you listed about the Assumption, it is quite beautiful the read again. Another book you should read is St. Francis de Sales “The Catholic Controversy”. In it he lists the eight rules of Faith, seven positive, and one negative. The Protestants tend to totally botch the negative one, human reason, using it instead as a positive rule via private interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. The gift of Faith must always precede the operation of the human intellect, which is fallible. From my baptism I have known what it is I must believe, even before I have seen it. As a fallen away Catholic, I can guess that your formation was most likely truncated before you got to know Thomas Aquinas or Augustine. There is still time. God Bless.
I would add that although the specific word “Trinity” is not used in Scripture, there are numerous clear references to this doctrine, most notably the command of Jesus to go out and baptize “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
Not to mention the opening chapter of John, and the long discussions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the Last Supper in that gospel.
On the other hand, nowhere in the Bible does it say “sola scriptura.” But in several places it says that Jesus told the Apostles many things that are not mentioned in Scripture. And it says that He will send the Holy Spirit and be with His Church until the end of the world.
So, that’s another misrepresentation right off the top.
A few points:
1. Tradition predated Scripture. Why would the church authorize texts that cortradicted her original oral teaching?
2. Church is to interpret scripture when it is unclear. Without an ultimate authority there is chaos. That was the charism given to Peter, “strengthen your brethren”.
3. The canon was official by the 4th century, although some individuals had disputes with some books. Their disputes were not official teaching.
4. Honorius was condemned for not sufficiently opposing the heresy, not for promoting it. Infallibility only refers to the charism of not TEACHING error.
5. The keys symbolize an office, not a person. this implies reasonably that the office was to be passed down.
6. The church is, indeed built on Christ alone. It is his mystical body. But it needs a visible symbol of authority in this finite world.
7. Papal succession was listed as far back as the 2nd century by Iranaeus. Why be concerned about that particular see, if it were not of special significance?
8. Mary is not co redemtorix in any dogma. Some theologins promote this, but it is simply a theory, and not a very good one at that.
9. Queen of Heaven is not a dogma, but a pious appellation. Mary is a mediator, just like any saint may intercede for us with God.
We need to distinguish between the concepts of "only truth" and "ultimate and final authority." Catholic reject the idea that the Scriptures are the "only truth" because we believe that the Holy Spirit continues to reside in the Church and protects its teachings from error. But this does not place Tradition above Scripture but with it. Thus Scripture and Tradition together are the "ultimate and final authority." For the Catholic there is no contradiction between Scripture and Tradition. When we disagree with Protestants on Scripture it is not because we are placing Tradition over Scripture but because we disagree with their interpretation of what Scripture means. Indeed, it is more a disagreement over conflicting traditions than it is a disagreement over the authority of Scripture. However much Protestants claim they are relying on Scripture alone, in truth they are relying on a particular tradition of interpretation of Scripture.
Do you really place your beauracracy above the Lord?
How would you react if I were to ask you if you placed the Bible above the Lord? Catholics look to Jesus Christ above all else. Where we differ with Protestants is that we see him acting through the Church (which includes the both Scripture and Tradition) and not just through the Bible alone.
In the spirit of Christian charity, it is in accurate and misleading to use the term "anti-scripturalist". Traditional Christians simply believe that revelation is provided both through scripture and the traditions of the church. If you attended a traditional mass, you would probably be surprised to hear significantly more of scripture than you would hear in most protestant services. If you disagree with traditional Christianity, you should still be both accurate and charitable in describing it.
The statement is a mischaracterization. Catholic theology is pretty straightforward on this point. The magesterium (or traditional teaching of the church) can only clarify interpretation of scripture, and never contradict it. So where the author states that "the church is the ultimate truth and authority, not scripture", it seems (and perhaps one of our Roman Catholic friends can verify that I am not misstating this) an accurate statement would be that "scripture is the ultimate authority, but that individual and diverse interpretations of scripture cannot be correct, and only where there is continuity of tradition and teaching from the time of the apostles can the fullness of interpretation be relied upon."
Would "anti-sola scripturalist" be better????
Traditional Christians simply believe that revelation is provided both through scripture and the traditions of the church.
... and the selective musings of the living magisterium throughout the centuries, and the private visions of those like Pius XII's own personal sundance concert in the garden, etc.
If you attended a traditional mass, you would probably be surprised to hear significantly more of scripture than you would hear in most protestant services.
Sadly, you are correct there regarding far too many denominations and churches. But though the RCC does quote scripture, it is used like pixie dust sprinkled onto and into rituals, ceremonies, rites, procedures to give them the appearance of religious credibility. I should know -- I sat, stood, and genuflected through enough of them.
If you disagree with traditional Christianity, you should still be both accurate and charitable in describing it.
So should you -- especially the accurate part. The RCC or any other church or member therof can quote scripture until they are blue in the face, but quoting it will get them no eternal rewards. One has to "believe it" -- and there is the rub.
“How would you react if I were to ask you if you placed the Bible above the Lord”
I would simply tell you the answer. The Bible is the Word of God. Since Jesus is the Word, they are one and the same.
The Bible is the Word of God. Since Jesus is the Word, they are one and the same.
That's very interesting.
I HAD seen this formulation: The Bible is the Words of God about the Word of God. But you are making an assertion that is kind of like "Real Presence". It's very interesting.
I note that nobody seems to have touched my earlier post about how this article has an untruth in it very near the beginning.
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Perhaps "anti-sola scripturalism" (love the theological follower, not the theology)
So should you -- especially the accurate part. The RCC or any other church or member therof can quote scripture until they are blue in the face, but quoting it will get them no eternal rewards. One has to "believe it" -- and there is the rub.
Your statement is illogical in the context of our discussion. Scripture is the core of liturgy, not a sprinkling of "pixie dust" as you state. Traditional christians practice our form of worship with a full belief and faith in scripture. As I'm sure that you know, Christ calls us to both charity and fidelity. If you attended a parish that failed in conveying the fullness of the faith to you, that is a tragedy. However, it is both an untruth and uncharitable to extrapolate your unfortunate experience to your assertion that catholics may quote scripture "until they are blue in the face", but don't believe it. It is also illogical.
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