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To: unlearner

The website contains a blog. This is a blog entry. The entry itself is not dedicated to biblical evidence for Catholicism. You are correct that it does not rely on scripture quotes and presumes that the reader is familiar with the relevant scripture.

Regarding the Holy Scripture vis a vis Catholicism, the situation is this:

Individual interpretations of isolated verses exist that, some Protestants claim, contradict the Catholic doctrines. In fact, only the interpretation is in contradiction, and it is thereby a wrong interpretation, or at least one lacking substantial authority. Such is for example, the putative contradiction of Mary being free from all sin and prooftexts like “all have sinned” in Romans or the fact that she called Christ her Savior. Neither implies Mary sinned.

At times it is not the interpretation of what is in the scripture, but rather imagining things that are not in it. such are for example, things that attempt to prove that Mary had other children because of the use of the word “brother”. This must be where you fault the author for relying on “the silence or apparent ambiguity of scripture [...] as if this provides some sort of cover”. It is true that the scripture does not definitively say that Mary had no sin, or had not marital relations with St. Joseph. This is not “cover” or a “difficulty in defending Catholic doctrine” to point that out.

Often, stuff is alleged against Catholicism that is in fact not taught by Catholicism: that Catholics worship saints or holy objects like pagan gods or idols, they they resacrifice Christ, that they can pay money to get sins absolved, that they invent novel doctrines to contradict old, etc. Then the scripture is brought to bear against these fallacies.

At other times, devotional practices are said to contradict the scripture because they are not described in the scripture, or a similar practice condemned in a different context. That is simply silly; it might make sense for a practitioner of Sola Scriptura to seek “biblical authorization” for various prayers and devotions, but then the concept of Sola Scriptura is itself counter-scriptural.

There is nothing in the scripture that contradicts Catohlicism. It is that simple. And we did not have to censor whole books or mangle translations to say that.

You don’t offer specific criticism, but you mention that some of Catholic practices seem to you “stuck in the carnal mindset” and not centered on Christ. The answer to that is that we are not stuck in the carnal any more that Christ Himself, who chose to be incarnate to suffer carnally and die carnally for us. He also chose one woman — not two or more, and not zero — to bring Him into the carnal world. A prayer to a saint is a prayer to Christ, always. If it doesn’t seem to you that way, well, this is why you are not Catholic, yet.

If you want to discuss any particular scripture that you think contradicts Catholicism, let us do so.


19 posted on 05/13/2008 7:50:32 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“You don’t offer specific criticism... If you want to discuss any particular scripture that you think contradicts Catholicism, let us do so.”

I can.

“Individual interpretations of isolated verses exist that, some Protestants claim, contradict the Catholic doctrines. “

Indeed, the Bible not only allows for believers to question those who are or assert themselves to be in spiritual authority over us, BUT it actually commands us to.

Many scriptures warn of false prophets and teachers. We are told to beware and test what we hear. For example:

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

We confirm whether doctrine is true by comparing it with what the scriptures say:

Acts 17:11
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

It is the listener’s responsibility to discern and reject what is false, and for believers to separate from any individual or group that professes Christ but commits sins against the body of Christ:

Galatians 2:5
to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Acts 19:9
But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

Jesus even allowed His listeners to test what He said:

John 10:37-38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.

Jesus proved His testimony to be true on the basis of scripture:

John 8:16-18
And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.

Christ commends those who test the claims of apostolic authority:

Revelation 2:1-3
...These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary...”

“In fact, only the interpretation is in contradiction, and it is thereby a wrong interpretation, or at least one lacking substantial authority.”

An interpretation is not validated by an appeal to human authority, but by comparing scriptures and by inspecting the fruit of such doctrine. In the case of prophecy, another test is whether it comes to pass. As to my point above I can cite numerous scriptures which concur. The word of God is alive and authoritative by itself. A person’s ability to understand it is determined by their willingness to be obedient to it and to the Holy Spirit:

John 7:17
If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

“Such is for example, the putative contradiction of Mary being free from all sin and prooftexts like ‘all have sinned’ in Romans or the fact that she called Christ her Savior. Neither implies Mary sinned.”

When the Bible repeatedly makes the same point so plainly a small child could understand it, it is unreasonable to call this a proof text. The sin of all of mankind is presented repeatedly with a view to the death of Christ being the only possible means of salvation. The universal sinfulness of mankind is a non-negotiable Biblical doctrine essential to the message of the Gospel and the meaning of Christ’s death. The Bible says Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Christ. To assert that Christ’s purity and sinlessness was contingent on hers is a contradiction of scripture in the most extreme sense of perversion. Jesus existed before Mary, as He is the eternal Son and she His creation. She did not form Him. She did not contribute to His deity. She did not even make His humanity because she did not make her own humanity.

1 Kings 8:46
“When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin), and You become angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, and they take them captive to the land of the enemy, far or near;

2 Chronicles 6:36
When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin), and You become angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, and they take them captive to a land far or near;

Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:9
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

“things that attempt to prove that Mary had other children because of the use of the word ‘brother’.”

There are multiple scriptures that support that Mary was a virgin when Christ was conceived and born, but not for her entire life. There are no scriptures that even hint that she remained a virgin. Joseph was not intimate with Mary UNTIL AFTER the birth of Christ according to Matthew 1:25.

“but then the concept of Sola Scriptura is itself counter-scriptural.”

If, that term is used to claim we cannot learn truth from other sources than the Bible such as conscience, nature, logical reasoning, the testimony of witnesses, and such, I agree with you. God has given many witnesses to the truth. When it comes to revealed truth upon which saving faith rests, their can be only one final authority. The Word of God takes precedence over other authoritative sources of truth. And that is not contrary to scripture.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

1 John 3:20
... God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

1 John 5:9
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

“The answer to that is that we are not stuck in the carnal any more that Christ Himself, who chose to be incarnate to suffer carnally and die carnally for us.”

You apparently misunderstand my use of the term “carnal”. Christ lived as a flesh and blood man, but He was never carnal. My point is that a mind governed only by human reasoning will not recognize the supremacy of Christ over all else. Peter even fell into this trap at the transfiguration when he elevated Moses and Elijah to the same level as Christ:

Luke 9:32-36
But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen.

Peter later referenced this account when testifying as to the authority of scripture. The supremacy of Christ is essential to unlocking the meaning of scripture.

“He also chose one woman — not two or more, and not zero — to bring Him into the carnal world. “

In elevating the role of Mary beyond what the Bible says, this doctrine fails to measure up to the standard of searching scripture to see if these things are so. The intimacy of spiritual union with Christ is greater than the physical union of Mary or anyone else who knew Christ during His first advent.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

2 Corinthians 5:16
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

It is possible for believers to sin and err. It is possible for churches to sin and err. God’s remedy for this is repentance.

Revelation 2:5-7
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent... He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

When will those who claim to be part of The Church, who claim to be believers in Christ, humble themselves under the authority of scripture and repent of teaching what contradicts scripture and of advocating practices which violate Christ’s commands?


80 posted on 05/13/2008 8:41:47 PM PDT by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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