Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]

CH Network ^ | Victor R. Claveau

[NYer]

This is by far one of the best explanations I have read.

Also, for those who thrive on challenge, here is a quick reference chart (pdf format) that will help you read through the bible in one year!

READ BIBLE IN ONE YEAR

[dangerdoc]

bump

[netmilsmom]

The Pdf won’t open for me.
Would you be willing to send it to me if I pm my email?

[annalex]

Thank you, NYer; I wanted to post on this subject myself, and instead found this thread today.

If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

Previously posted (all threads are open, unless marked otherwise):

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
The Great Heresies
SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
Hermits and Solitaries [Ecumenical]
THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE
RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT
A Well-Rounded Pope [Ecumenical]
A Monastery to Last 1,000 Years [Ecumenical]

[mnehring]

bump for later

[bigcat32]

Why so much “Jewish legend” to describe what’s alleged to be in the New Testament?

Jewish legend tells us that on the first day of creation God produced ten things: the heavens and the earth, Tohu and Bohu (formlessness and emptiness), light and darkness, wind and water, the duration of the day and the duration of the night.

“Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a distinct purpose. The first, the one visible to us, has no function except that of covering up the light during the nighttime; therefore it disappears every morning. The planets are fastened to the second of the heavens; in the third the manna is made for the pious in the hereafter; the fourth contains the celestial Jerusalem together with the Temple, in which Michael ministers as high priest, and offers the souls of the pious as sacrifices. In the fifth heaven, the angel hosts reside, and sing the praise of God, though only during the night, for by day it is the task of Israel on earth to give glory to God on high. The sixth heaven is an uncanny spot; there originate most of the trials and visitations ordained for the earth and its inhabitants. Snow lies heaped up there and hail; there are lofts full of noxious dew, magazines stocked with storms, and cellars holding reserves of smoke. Doors of fire separate these celestial chambers, which are under the supervision of the archangel Metatron. Their pernicious contents defiled the heavens until David’s time. The pious king prayed to God to purge His exalted dwelling of whatever was pregnant with evil; it was not becoming that such things should exist near the Merciful One. Only then were they removed to the earth.
“The seventh heaven, on the other hand, contains only what is good and beautiful; right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations, the dew with which God will revive the dead on the resurrection day, and, above all, the Divine Throne, surrounded by the seraphim and ofanim, the holy Hayyot (the highest angelic beings), and the ministering angels.” (The Legends of the Jews, Louis Ginzberg, Vol. 1, p. 8-9, 1937, Jewish Publication Society)

Gehenna

Jewish belief was there were also seven levels of the abode of the dead. The exact opposite of the seventh level of heaven is the seventh level of the abode of the dead, which was/is called Gehenna. As the seventh level of heaven is perfect love, then Gehenna would be the total absence of love, or perfect hate. One priest described it by saying that “if it were possible, a person in Gehenna would tear his own flesh from his body, because he has only perfect hatred, even for himself.”

[Alex Murphy]

That the Scriptures do not interpret themselves is evidenced by the myriad of Christian denominations in existence today. Each denomination has the same basic New Testament as their foundation, yet there is little or no agreement concerning substantive doctrinal issues. Each person professes to rely on the Holy Spirit as guide and arbiter. It seems as if the Holy Spirit has a multiple personality disorder and instructs each person with a different truth.

Rancor offered up as an ecumenical thread? No thank you.

[Bitsy]

I am by no means a biblical scholar but what did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross, “this day thy shall be with me in paridise”? How could the thief be with Jesus if he was supposed to be suffering for his sins in purgatory?

[wagglebee]

I am by no means a biblical scholar but what did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross, “this day thy shall be with me in paridise”?

That the thief would enter Heaven that day.

How could the thief be with Jesus if he was supposed to be suffering for his sins in purgatory?

The Church has never taught that all go to Purgatory, nor has it taught the duration that one must be in Purgatory.

Perhaps you should look at this passage:
31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

What is "the world to come" where forgiveness possible? It IS NOT Heaven, because all has already been forgiven there. Nor is it Hell, because there IS NO forgiveness available there. That means that THERE MUST be a "world to come" where those who have not been forgiven might still receive forgiveness.

[annalex]

if he was supposed to be suffering for his sins in purgatory?

Who says he was supposed to go to purgatory? He did his share of suffering in life.

[annalex]

Here is a concise theological explanation of prayers for the dead. The liturgical practices are described in the rest of the article at source.

Praying for the Dead

II Maccabees 12:43-46: "And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."     Those who've died in a state of grace are not truly "dead"; they are our beloved in Heaven or in Purgatory (on their way to Heaven) and will forever be, world without end, part of the Communion of Saints -- the Church Triumphant (the Saints in Heaven, whether or not they are beatified or canonized), the Church Suffering (the saints in Purgatory), and the Church Militant (the saints on earth). Because we can't know, aside from those the Church has beatified or canonized, who is already in Heaven, who is in Purgatory for a time, or who is damned, we pray for the dead for the rest of our lives -- assuming they are in Purgatory, while hoping they are in Heaven and not damned. We also ask those who've died to pray for us. While those whom the Church has deemed to be of the Church Triumphant (the canonized Saints) are in Heaven for certain and are, therefore, in no need of our prayers for them, we've always asked for them to pray for us. As to the Church Suffering in Purgatory, Aquinas teaches that they are not able to know, by themselves, our prayers; however, it is piously believed, and taught by St. Alphonsus Liguori, that God makes our prayers known to them -- not directly, as they are deprived of the Beatific Vision until they enter Heaven, but by infusing this knowledge into their souls. St. Bellarmine teaches that because the Church Suffering is so close to God -- much closer than we are and having the great consolation of knowing they are saved -- their prayers for us are very effective. So, as you pray for your dead loved ones, ask them to pray for you, too! As to the damned, there is no hope; no prayer can help them and we can't pray formally for those in Hell. The problem, of course, is that we can't know who is damned, and so we pray generally for "all the faithful departed." For those who've died outside of visible Communion with Christ's Church or for those Catholics who've died seemingly without repentance and in scandal, public prayer cannot be offered, but we can most certainly still pray privately with the hope that they've died in a state of grace (i.e., those who are denied a Catholic funeral can't be prayed for liturgically, publicly, but they can most definitely be prayed for -- and should be prayed for -- privately). Priests can even offer Masses for such people privately, without naming them.

Fish Eaters

[annalex]

The link to Catholic funeral should be Catholic funeral.

The painting is "St. Teresa of Avila Interceding for the Souls in Purgatory", Peter Paul Reubens workshop (1577-1640).

[annalex]

for the third time...

Catholic funeral

[Bitsy]

That means that THERE MUST be a “world to come” where those who have not been forgiven might still receive forgiveness.

Didn’t Jesus say there would be a new heaven and a new earth?

[wagglebee]

Didn’t Jesus say there would be a new heaven and a new earth?

Actually, Saint John saw this and he was talking about AFTER the Lord's return.

This does not preclude Purgatory, in fact it legitimizes it.

[steve86]

Were you able to get it?

[NYer]

Would you be willing to send it to me if I pm my email?

There is a link at the site posted above.

[NYer]

Excellent post! Thank you!