Why do Catholics have to confess their sins to a priest instead of praying straight to God? [Ecu]

Black Cordelias ^ | July 2, 2008 | bfhu

[NYer]

Q. Why do Catholics have to confess their sins to a priest instead of praying straight to God?

A. In obedience to Christ.

John 20:19-23 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

After His resurrection, Jesus, appeared to His disciples on Easter Sunday evening. He conferred the power to forgive sins by breathing on them. This corresponds to God breathing life into Adam. And so, Jesus breathes life giving power to forgive sins into his disciples. Note that this is before Pentecost and the general bestowal of the Holy Spirit. This is a special and unique pouring out of the Holy Spirit for the disciples, the first priests and bishops of the Christian Church.

And the purpose of this special dispensation of the Holy Spirit is to empower the apostles with the authority to forgive or not forgive sins in the name of Christ. This specific action cannot mean some sort of general power such as that by the preaching of the Gospel sins are forgiven or not depending upon the hearer. Jesus says, “If you forgive….if you do not forgive…” It would be impossible for the disciples to obey Jesus without audibly hearing the confessions of men and women, boys and girls.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Now this verse can be interpreted in a Protestant way to mean salvation by the preaching of the Gospel. However, we see this verse as further proof for the sacrament of reconciliation/confession. Also, James points out

James 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

The Greek word for elders is presbuterous. This is the Greek etymological root from which we get our English word for priest. So, James is saying to call the priests to pray for healing both physical and spiritual. Why would James specify the calling of the elders/priests for those who are sick if they had no more authority than the average Christian?

[Paved Paradise]

All believers are part of the priesthood. It is God who forgives; men are merely the conduit. Also, a man can go directly to God for forgiveness without the conduit of other men. I am sure many a lonely man has confessed on his deathbed all of his sins, whether was was stranded at sea, lost in some wilderness, or left in some prison cell to rot.

I have no beef with the Catholic Church, per se, but when you post this kind of stuff which might cause people to question whether their sins were forgiven or not merely because they did not seek out some Catholic priest, it’s exasperating to say the least; and, frankly, mean.

[Paved Paradise]

The book is called “Rome Sweet Home” by Scott Hahn.

I have read this book twice. Hahn never really explains anything (IMHO). A lot of words but with no true understanding of what he’s talking about - lots of feelings but the people who bark like dogs and laugh like hyenas saying it’s the Holy Spirit talk alot about feelings too.

[Paved Paradise]

What a joke. I’ve heard expositional preaching that is nothing BUT scripture... in many, many non-Catholic churches. One can go in any church and hear non-Scriptural messages. My church sometimes has them too - they are always scriptural based but just not meaty. I’ve been to Catholic churches where the message was such a bunch of hooey I thought I was in a Unitarian church and let me assure you that my mother-in-law’s old church had a priest who regularly regaled them with tripe about how Satan was a figment and fantasy and not real and my poor mother-in-law fell for it hook, line and sinker. She argued and argued with me about this.

I believe that God’s children will always find his truth when in His true church. There are bastard churches in every single denomination that exists; churches that are being run by the Devil himself and I guarantee you that there are Catholic churches in that group.

I knew a man that was a pastor in a Methodist church. He had been preaching for years but didn’t know Christ - he had not experienced the circumcision of the heart. When he did, he was a new man and started preaching like he was on fire and the congregation did not like it and tried to get rid of him; we were all praying for him. At the time, I was attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church but working in a Southern Baptist Church. This church was as dead as a doornail.

Christ’s remnant is everywhere. I know Roman Catholics that are so spirit-filled and love the Lord with all their heart, mind and soul. I know charismatic Catholics. I also know Catholics that are completely dead too. Just like there are people in my own church that go through the rituals, the motions and everything else because they feel some kind of compunction to do so.

Tony Evans has one of my favorite quotes, “Where does the Devil sit?” “In the first pew.”

I think the Devil is up on a few Catholic (and Lutheran, and Episcopalian, and Methodist, and Presbyterian, and so on) altars too! Don’t be fooled Puddleglum.

[Paved Paradise]

You know, I was re-reading some of your posts on this thread and one of the thoughts I had was how beautiful and simple Scripture is compared with all of these quotes you keep posting from your Catechism.

Instead of clarifying Scripture, the Catechism you cite is so wordy and cumbersome that it reminds me of how a bunch of lawyers can sit around and make something simple complicated to the point that only they can understand it, or at least claim to.

[ropin71]

Every protestant church I have attended since I was a child had, and still has them in the pews. My ex-Catholic wife gave me her perspective after seeing and sticking with the Protestant Church, and when we got married, there was no way she would not be Catholic, ever. Until she got very ill, and a friend called the priest to come see her in the hospital. Now she was a Sunday school teacher, and the priest couldn’t even remember her name. (the same guy who asked us if either one of us was gay when we requested to be married- really happened) and then complained that we should go to a hospital closer to him, as it was an extra 10 minutes away! Anyway, she saw that the masses were constantly the same old ritual,, same stuff being said every week, basically people in a big rush to get in and out as fast as they can, and seemed to be all about the money. Contribute what you could, and the priest snubs you and the secretary calls you at home if they don’t get the envelope for a month.

Just wanted to see what others thought, not meant to offend.
I’m just sayin...

[andysandmikesmom]

Well, then you and I have had two completely different experiences....and since our experiences are really nothing but anecdotal tales, they are not reliable at all, regarding this as a whole...perhaps some other non-Catholics should weigh in here, and let us know if their non-Catholic Christian church provides Bibles in the pews...the only way we will ever know for sure, is if there would be some sort of large survey...I would still be surprised to find out that the majority of non-Catholic Christian churches actually provided Bibles for those who attended their church...sorry, I am not buying it, in spite of your own anecdotal experiences...in fact, I may just conduct my own little survey into this...in my area, there are at least 20 churches of varying denominations, within a 1/2 hour drive of my house...I could very easily call each one of them up, and see if they provide Bibles in the pews for the use of their members...this would be quite interesting...let’s see, right near me, there are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, 7th Day adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Episcopalian, Catholic, Church of God, a few what are called ‘community churches’, and a few others...I would be curious what they would say, if I asked them if they provide Bible in each of their pews...I am betting that their answer is going to be no..tho, of course, I might be completely wrong...I am curious now, about this, so I think over the next few weeks, I will conduct my own little survey in the churches in my area...it would be very interesting, to see how it comes out...

But regardless of that, anyone, anywhere, can go to any bookstore, and buy their choice of Bibles...whether it is the Catholic Bible, or the King James Bible, or whatever Bible, most bookstores, carry a large supply and variety of Bibles, and any person, wanting a Bible can buy their own..in fact, I have found, that most people, whether Catholic or non-Catholic, want to have their own Bible, often several Bibles at home, for home study...

Sounds like your personal experience with the Catholic church, and individual priests was not an experience you cared for...however, I, not a Catholic, have met my fair share of ministers of non-Catholic Christian churches, who to my mind, were just shoddy ministers, not any good at their calling...and I have met priests who were wonderful...and vice versa...

One cannot generalize that the whole Catholic Church is bad, because your experience with a priest here or there, or a congregation here and there, was not what you were looking for, or because you feel you were treated badly...

Everyone has their own anecdotal tales to tell, good or bad, but to take those anecdotal tales and apply them, to this religion, or that religion, as a whole, is not logical...

Anyway, you have now piqued my interest about which churches do or do not put Bibles in their pews for the use of those attending the services...

I happen to know that there are between 20-25 churches of varying denominations in my area, within a 1/2 hours drive, simply because one day, I took the time to find out...this was when some other Freeper, long ago, tried to make the claim, that churches were virtually non-existent in the area where I live...so I made the drive one Sunday morning, counted the churches, and took note of their parking lots(which were full up)....

So, I will be curious to see what my next venture will show...I will be sure to get back to you, and let you, whether or not, any of these various Christian churches, provide Bibles in the pews, for the use of those at the service...I still believe my survey will confirm, what I believe to be the truth..

Anyway, I am sorry that you had those bad experiences, but I think that we may all have had some bad experiences with different representatives of different religions...

Anyway, I will get back to you and this thread, after I conduct my little survey...It will be interesting...

[Salvation]

The forgiveness, you might say, is spoken by the priest, but God forgives the sins through the absolution the PRIEST administers.

Thus, in answer to your question, the priest, successor of the apostles does forgive sins by invoking the name of God.

[chs68]

"You creat conflict where there is none. All Catholics know they can go directly to God for forgiveness, but they also have the benefit of Penance."

It is not my intention to create conflict where there is none.

I have asked questions about who it is that forgives sins -- God or human beings who have been ordained.

Some here have said that God forgives sin.

Others have pointed to official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that say that a priest is essential for forgiveness.

Others have said that Christ gave the power and authority to forgvie sins to a certain group of men, and that those men passed that same authority along to other men.

It is all quite confusing.

I, too, know the benefit of confessing my sins. I also know that there is no use lying to God or holding back any of my sins when I confess to Him -- he already knows my sins anyway, and holding back any of my sins -- even my darkest and most awful sins -- when confessing to God is an affront to God, because it presumes to hide something from an all-knowing God.

[chs68]

"I hate to inform you that it really isn’t all about what it “seems” to you. It is about the truth, it is about Tradition, it is about the Bible interpreted by the authority which codified it through that same Tradition and handed on by the Apostles. It is all about the church that Jesus created, it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic and it will stand until the end of time."

Are you suggesting that truth is the same thing as "Tradition"? Or are you saying that truth is truth because of how the Bible has been interpreted? If so, then why is it that there are differences in belief between, say, the Orthodox Church (which claims that its Tradition and its interpretation of Scripture are truth)?

"YOU might not believe it but that’s okay, the Holy Spirit may someday take you by the hand and lead you there. And as Paul, who didn’t realize that by persecuting the Apostles that he was persecuting Christ, you may one day become a Catholic."

You got me there. I am certainly open to the leading of God's Holy Spirit. I do, however, hope that you are not really suggesting that by asking questions I am in any way "persecuting the Apostles". Heaven Forbid! I'll pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you into deeper understanding of truth, too. If that means that you remain a Roman Catholic, fine. But I do hope that you will be as open to leaving the Roman Catholic Church (should God's Holy Spirit lead you in that direction) as you hope that I am in becoming a Roman Catholic (should God's Holy Spirit lead me in that direction).

"You have the Bible and access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and until you truly study it and are informed in your opinions it will do no good to argue with you. My faith isn’t predicated by your opinions and feelings it is predicated on the Truth."

And neither is my faith predicated on my "opinions". I hope my faith is predicated on God's Word, revealed in Scripture and in the life and person of Jesus Christ. And I believe that it is Truth that God, through an act of his grace, has saved me.

Grace and Peace to you.

[markomalley]

I have no idea where you are drawing your conclusions:

"1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Doesn't that mean that God will not hear a confession made directly to Him?

How do you get that conclusion from the paragraph you quoted??? Please, I realize that you've been around for a while (since 2001), but I haven't seen your handle pop up much in the religion forum much, so maybe you're just not used to getting down and dirty around these parts. My goodness, you've got to at least try using a little first order logic in constructing your arguments.

The same applies to the twisting of the John 20 extract.

Please, at least put a little work into your arguments here...

[markomalley]

Speaking of forgiveness, the Vulgate of 2 Cor 2:10 is rather interesting.

For our KJV-only folks, here's the KJV: To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ

And the Vulgate, cui autem aliquid donatis et ego nam et ego quod donavi si quid donavi propter vos in persona Christi

Good Catholics ought to recognize the bolded text (particularly in the Latin)

[swmobuffalo]

“I would actually be quite surprised to go into any Christian church of any denomination, to find Bibles provided for all the members in the pews...I would actually expect that situation to the unusual one...”

Then be surprised. I’ve not ever been in a Christian church that DIDN’T provide a pew bible.

[ropin71]

I completely understand your experience with ministers as well. I currently attend a Presbyterian Church, and we are currently without a minister. We have a interim minister, who most are less than thrilled with, and the previous ones weren’t much better. Very milk toast.. My kids are involved with the youth and mission programs, and I’m not going to force them to leave. I am considering joining the search team for a new minister, but I’m not sure there is going to be much to choose from.

[Dr. Scarpetta]

I would still be surprised to find out that the majority of non-Catholic Christian churches actually provided Bibles for those who attended their church.

I belong to a church in the Wesleyan denomination, and there are bibles in the pews. In fact, the pastor always invites people to take one if they don't have their own at home. When I was a Presbyterian, there were also bibles in the pews.

[andysandmikesmom]

And yet, all the Methodist churches, and Baptist churches I attended, never had Bibles in the pews...so I am not sure, if this is a regional thing, or an individual church decision or what...I just find the whole thing interesting...and would like to dig a little further...that is why I think it would be a good exercise, when I have the time, to call all the churches in my area, to find out what they do concerning this matter...

I do remember in one Methodist church, they had no Bibles in the pews, but they had a great big beautiful Bible, up in the front of the church, and people were able to access it, either before or after the service, but not during...

I just asked my husband about his attendance at one of the local churches a few months back...he said they had hymnals in the pews, but no Bibles...

It gets more and more curious...

[andysandmikesmom]

Well, I have been in many Methodist churches in Chicago, large and small, and never saw Bibles in the Pews..when we lived rural North carolina, we went to a medium sized Baptist church, and they never had Bibles in the pews either...and I do consider both Baptists and Methodists to be Christians...so this seems not to be a cut and dry thing...

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

then why is it that there are differences in belief between, say, the Orthodox Church

There is virtually no difference between Catholics and Orthodox, which is why Catholics are allowed to attend Orthodox Mass, if no Catholic Churches are available.

[Salvation]

No Bibles in the pews?

That’s why coming to a Catholic Church is so neat. The readings (and, in fact, most of the Mass prayers said by the priest are in the missalettes in the pews.

Hymnals are also included.

[andysandmikesmom]

Well, having the hymnals, yes, I think that most churches provide those, as they buy them in big quantities, and are usually hard for the individuals to get...I think tho, that what we are talking about is having entire bibles in the pews, along with the hymnals...I honestly have never seen that, in any church I ever attended, of various religions...

Everyone just brought their own Bibles to church with them..now, I do remember, if someone forgot their Bible, and wanted to have one for the service, there were always a couple of them, kept in the back of the church...maybe 3 or 4 of them...but no way, did the church stock each and every pew, with Bibles for everyone...but the whole Bibles, were never in the pews, along with the hymnals..and when the children made their confirmations, the church always gave them a Bible, with their own names engraved on it, in gold lettering, and there was always an inscription on the front flyleaf, commemorating the date, the event,and who participated...

And that was now your Bible, to bring to church with you each Sunday...I still have mine to this day, it is old and tattered and worn, well, it is more than 50 years old, but still, it is a precious book to me..

[magisterium]

To seek and receive forgiveness of sins in the way that God prescribes is to get that forgiveness from God, even if the prescribed method uses mere humans as conduits for that forgiveness. No one disputes that Jesus said what He said in John 20, no? Well, then, the plain wording of the relevant text is hardly so obscure as to admit of alternate meanings. He said, flat out, that He would forgive sins through His Apostles, and breathed that power into them right then and there. He breathed on them precisely to show that He was imparting a character of his Godly power onto them. They had no power to forgive sins of themselves, but they did have it as soon as He imparted it to them. Why is it so hard for non-Catholics to take Him at His word here?

Jesus set up the Sacrament of Penance to interact with human agents, since He had no intention of "running" the Church in a direct, visible way. He certainly could have run it directly; no one would dispute that. But He didn't, choosing instead to return to the Father, and sending the Holy Spirit to guide the Church...through its human agents! "He who hears you hears Me" was said for a reason!

Many non-Catholics, in their zeal to ensure that Jesus "gets all the credit," ignore the obvious when it comes to things like John 20:21-23. The human element is flat-out denied. But this is excessive. Of course Jesus really has all the power and gets all the credit! Whatever the priests of His Church can do sacramentally for His flock is a derivative of His power! But, since He is not here in a recognizable human form ruling His Church directly from a visible throne, He knew that He had to empower certain members of His Church with a governing and ministerial authority to act in His stead. That's what it means when we say the the pope, for example, is the "vicar of Christ." He is His chief representative, that's all. He is not God, but he has been empowered by God with certain elements of the divine prerogatives, through a voluntary sharing of that power initiated and controlled by God.

Look at it this way: Jesus established that the promulgation of His Word would be left to human agents, and He also established that His written Word - both Testaments of Scripture - would likewise be created through flesh-and-blood, pen-wielding human beings, inspired by the Holy Spirit, yes, but true authors in their own right, too. These two situations where God clearly entrusts part of His divine prerogative should be a clue that there may, indeed, be others. Yes, the very imparting of His sanctifying grace is likewise accomplished through human agency, through the Sacraments. They don't "work" without His foundational cooperation. They impart no grace nor have any other kind of effect without His input to their efficacy. But, in all Sacramental actions, there is a co-operation between God and man, and His grace results. God is hardly diminished here! Man could do nothing with these Sacraments on his own authority. It is only through God that they are efficacious! Nevertheless, they are confected or effected through priestly (usually, marriage and - occasionally - baptism being the exceptions) interaction with God, because God so ordains it. To deny that He can do this, especially when many priestly functions are plain enough in Scripture, is to deny His omnipotence and to put "limits" on Him.

To sum up, God is the Author, Engine and Guarantor of the Sacraments, but He chooses to use mere sinful humans to dispense them. The Forgiveness of Sins is one of those Sacraments, and He undeniably gives this power - which had heretofore been reserved directly and solely to His action with no human intermediaries - to the Apostles in John 20:21-23. Christianity, in large measure, is an incarnational religion, tied-up often in physical things: water, bread, wine, oil, and so forth. These need human beings to interact with them. God can "handle" the sharing of the responsibility inherent in using these objects as vehicles of His grace. He's big enough to share the dispensing of His grace with even us sinners! And He has done so for nearly 2000 years. The fact that no one denied these things till nearly 1500 years into our present age should be mighty telling!