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To: mrjesse
Remember the example of marbles setting on a flat are of ground, 1 layer thick. When I said lowest energy resting state I put flesh on it by describing it as marbles sitting on a flat surface - not as some absolute zero thing.

This is exactly the absolute zero thing! Molecules at room temperature are analogous to marbles in a violently vibrating box, and kept in equally violent motion by the vibration.

Are you saying that you believe that if you mix up a bunch of molecules (which are not self-replicating metabolizing) you'll get a self-replicating and metabolizing living cell...?

Paper in white the floor of the room, and rule it off in one-foot squares. Down on one's hands and knees, write in the first square a set of equations conceived as able to govern the physics of the universe. Think more overnight. Next day put a better set of equations into square two. Invite one's most respected colleagues to contribute to other squares. At the end of these labors, one has worked oneself out into the doorway. Stand up, look back on all those equations, some perhaps more hopeful than others, raise one's finger commandingly, and give the order "Fly!" Not one of those equations will put on wings, take off, or fly. Yet the universe "flies". - John A. Wheeler

10 posted on 07/04/2008 6:17:34 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew
Paper in white the floor of the room, and rule it off in one-foot squares. Down on one's hands and knees, write in the first square a set of equations conceived as able to govern the physics of the universe. Think more overnight. Next day put a better set of equations into square two. Invite one's most respected colleagues to contribute to other squares. At the end of these labors, one has worked oneself out into the doorway. Stand up, look back on all those equations, some perhaps more hopeful than others, raise one's finger commandingly, and give the order "Fly!" Not one of those equations will put on wings, take off, or fly. Yet the universe "flies". - John A. Wheeler

Like my grandpa could have but probably didn't say, if a man can't make his own point he probably doesn't have one!

But from what I gather, you're implying something along the lines of "Cells are obviously here and since the only way they could have come to exist is if they sprang to life from randomly mixed inorganic soup, and so therefore that is how it happened..?" I Taut' so, I Taut' so...!

-Jesse

14 posted on 07/04/2008 11:44:08 PM PDT by mrjesse (Could it be true? Imagine, being forgiven, and having a cause, greater then yourself, to live for!)
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To: dr_lew
This is exactly the absolute zero thing! Molecules at room temperature are analogous to marbles in a violently vibrating box, and kept in equally violent motion by the vibration.

You're still not understanding the concept I'm describing. Maybe I didn't use the right word. Maybe you can tell me the correct word that will make you happy. But the concept I'm trying to convey is the concept that certain types of atoms and molecules "prefer" to arrange themselves in certain patterns more then any other, under certain circumstances. For example, hydrogen and chlorine in a chamber together have a potential energy available, and above a certain temp, they will combine. Hydrogen and carbon, for example, do not have nearly the attraction. They can be forced together under various conditions, but they are not always stable. Acetylene for example if heated too much even in the absence of oxygen will actually decompose violently into atomic carbon and hydrogen gas. My point is that some atomic or molecular arangements happen easily and release energy, and others do not happen easily and require energy.

That is what I meant by marbles sitting on a smooth plot of ground or water molecules forming ice flakes - the reason the atoms line up the way they do is because that takes the least amount of energy, or because that's the pattern that has the strongest affinity to form -- just like marbles settling one layer deep resting on a flat surface.

If I were to see 3 marbles perched up on top on eachother I'd stop and say "Wait a second. That's not the natural most likely state."

My point is that some things, like snowflakes or quarts crystals look ordered or designed but that's just because that's the most favorable way for the atoms and molecules to fit together in those cases.

And I'm saying that for a single living metabolizing reproducing sell to spring into existence, about a gazillion marbles will need to be stacked up in the most unlikely way.

-Jesse

16 posted on 07/05/2008 3:28:25 AM PDT by mrjesse (Could it be true? Imagine, being forgiven, and having a cause, greater then yourself, to live for!)
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