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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; wmfights; Petronski; ...
If this faith leads one to obey the Gospel and the Church, that's the works upon which he will be judged. If not, the ignorant Muslim who give his last shirt to a stranger might be with an advantage.

My understanding is that no devout Muslim can be ignorant of Christ since the Koran teaches blasphemy about Him. I hope you are not suggesting that free passes are given to anyone who has not been taught correctly about Christ, and generally does good deeds? If that was true then no one should evangelize nice people, because only then could they lose. :) Under this theory it would be fine, however, to evangelize mean and rotten people since their worst case would be to remain in the same spot.

FK: ... you don't appear to think that faith is necessary.

Faith is necessary for sanctification, but Christ has always been merciful to those of little faith.

When Christ talks about those with "little faith" do you think He is including people with no true faith at all? Also, would you say sanctification is necessary for salvation, thus making faith required, or was that a distinction you were making?

We are not independent. We are totally dependent on His grace. What we have is not sovereignty, but free will.

But since all God does is make it possible for you to later be saved, then after you accept His grace isn't man's sovereignty and free will the same thing? That is what I have been meaning when using the term "man's sovereignty". At that time you are completely independent because you are in total control of your own destiny.

FK: Calvinism promotes a personal one-on-one relationship between the person and God.

First, the scripture does not teach that one-on-one part.

Do you really NOT think that Jesus died for you PERSONALLY? That would be a terrible shame if you did. The whole Bible is a personal love letter from God TO us. The personal nature of the relationships God had with His prophets in the OT as well as those of Jesus with His disciples is everywhere in scriptures. Just in general terms I don't understand how anyone can think that the actual indwelling Holy Spirit is not as personal as it gets. Is Holy Spirit an embedded computer chip in our heads? :) Here is one passage:

Gal 5:22-23 : 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

I mean, does this sound robotic to you or like an extremely close personal relationship?

Second, despite whatever rhetoric, with denial of free will comes denial of that very desire to imitate Christ by which we are saved and reach heaven.

Where is the logic in this? How can it be that with man's original flawed heart he can have this desire, but with a new heart FROM GOD that desire cannot, by necessity, exist? Besides, as the Bible says NO ONE is born with the desire to seek God:

Ps 53:2-3 : 2 God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

By this theology you elevate the sinful heart we are born with ABOVE the work of God! How does that work? :)

How many Protestants do you know who would read from St. Athanasius "God became man so that man can become God" and nod in happy agreement?

None who would agree with that wording. :) We seek to be conformed to the image of Christ, but not to "become God". If those are the same thing, then ALL Bible-believing Protestants would nod in happy agreement. We might just disagree about whether it is the innate goodness of man or the innate goodness of God that makes this happen.

1,087 posted on 08/10/2008 6:24:03 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

Stop pinging me to your posts.


1,089 posted on 08/10/2008 6:29:09 PM PDT by Petronski (The God of Life will condemn the Chinese government. Laogai means GULAG.)
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