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To: kosta50
You wrote that the West fails to see that law and love are essentially different and mutually excusive, and that law cannot express or replace love.

But Jesus clearly states, "If you love me, keep my commandments... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:15, 23)

Jesus says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19)

In fact in the Sermon on the Mount he goes on to confirm the commandments and even further them--the teaching of Christ is even more demanding than the ten commandments.

For example, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:21-22).

He does the same for adultery, extending it to chastity of the mind; divorce; oaths; justice; love of neighbor, extending it to include enemies.

My point is that murder and adultery and false oaths and revenge are clearly against the teaching of Jesus. Jesus demands not only external observance ("Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven"), but even more, purity of intention and heart in observing them (hence not legalism). Our Lord and St. Paul never dispense from the natural law, the 10 commandments as such; and, as far as I can see, they never imply that a Christian is obliged to 613 norms of the mitzvoth as expressed in the Torah. As St. Paul points out, “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.” (Galatians 5:3). And if that is the case, "Christ shall profit you nothing...[and] ye are fallen from grace." (5:2,4) So we are justified by faith, not by the law.

Yet if we break the 10 commandments we are not justified: “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Help me out. There has to be a distinction somewhere. I don't think you are saying "all or nothing"--Do we have to observe the mitzvoth in its entirety? Or no law at all, not even the 10 commandments? Is it faith alone (no law)? Or merits and good works alone (legalism)?

What is the Orthodox position on all of this?

148 posted on 08/14/2008 5:58:08 PM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia
But Jesus clearly states, "If you love me, keep my commandments..."

It's conforming to God out of love. The obedience is internal not external. We don't want to offend God! If we love God, we will not do that which would not please him the way you would never do something to hurt those you love. It's different from obeying the speed limit "because it's the law and everyone is subject to law."  

149 posted on 08/14/2008 11:22:29 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
My point is that murder and adultery and false oaths and revenge are clearly against the teaching of Jesus.

He merely taught the mitzvot.

150 posted on 08/14/2008 11:24:15 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19)

You mean there will be different "levels" of eternal bliss? Some will abide "closer" to God than others? Must be careful about the wording. The "kingdom of heaven" in Judaism is merely the state of Israel: a kingdom of God's people on earth, established by God. It doesn't mean the kingdom "up there" (that is a Christian re-interpretation). You also must realize that the Jews did not believe in "heaven" but they did believed in "the underworld" (Sheol), which is not exactly hell; it is rather both the paradise and hell.

If you read the story of the poor man (Lazarus) and a rich man,  in Luke 16, it is obvious that the Apostles still believed the dead ended up in Sheol and not in heaven. Sheol was essentially the world of the departed which very much reflected our earthy life, some "living" in Abraham's bosom, and other far away; some comforted and other alone.

Judaism taught that those who are righteous in the eyes of God (those who observed the 613 mitzvot) would be rewarded proportionally in Sheol as well as in the kingdom of Israel God will establish when the messiah (the anointed warrior king) appears.

151 posted on 08/14/2008 11:25:59 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
Our Lord and St. Paul never dispense from the natural law, the 10 commandments as such; and, as far as I can see, they never imply that a Christian is obliged to 613 norms of the mitzvoth as expressed in the Torah

Christ, for one, had to abide by the law and he never taught that the Torah  was wrong; he simply taught that some interpreted it wrongly. He also never taught that we are saved by faith alone. If anything, he emphasizes works.

+Paul on his part kept the law as well. He just didn't hold the non-Jews to it. Being a Jew he was acutely aware that only Jews are obligated by the law, but God's choice, and that holding Gentiles to it would be contrary to God's wishes because God never says non-Jews fall under the law.

Being clever, +Paul understood that the law by itself doesn't save, but only God's grace. That's why he says

We are all equally guilty! We all have sinned. We are not saved by the law, nor by faith, but by God's mercy. 

However, if that's the case, why keep any commandments? The answer, of course, is out of love. When the Orthodox go to confess, they say

We don't say that we have broken the law. We didn't break the law. We did something much worse: we "dumped" God for something material and passing, for the love of the world, for the love of Mammon over God, out of disrespect for the One who gave us everything, including our life.

And if that is the case, "Christ shall profit you nothing...[and] ye are fallen from grace." (5:2,4)

The Bible also says that God will save whomever he wants to save.

As for the Law, +James—Paul's nemesis—teaches

You can't only quote +Paul. There is other talent besides him. :)

I don't see Christ anywhere suggesting one is saved by faith alone. Nor do I see anywhere Christ calling on ministering to the Gentiles by dropping the Law. He only places love as the motivator as the reason for obeying commandments, and not the law itself. In other words, obey the commandments our of respect for, and gratitude to God, and not because "it's the law."

If you love God with all your heart and mind and soul, you will not have to worry too much about breaking the commandments.

152 posted on 08/14/2008 11:40:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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