Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Life On Gold Plates - (LDS) Open
http://lifeongoldplates.blogspot.com/2008/08/bushmans-introduction-to-joseph-smith.html ^ | August 14, 2008 | Richard Bushman

Posted on 08/15/2008 1:47:27 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

August 14, 2008

Bushman's Introduction to "Joseph Smith and His Critics" Seminar

The following is Richard Bushman's introduction to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008. I also have a poor mp3 recording of the paper and in the next week or so I plan on blogging any additions Bushman made in reading the paper to the group. For my thoughts on the seminar in general, see "Preliminary Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar," and "Follow-up Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar." For notes on the presentations themselves, see Juvenile Instructor's "Notes on the 2008 Bushman Seminar," parts one and two.

Introduction
Richard Bushman

Increasingly teachers and church leaders at all levels are approached by Latter-day Saints who have lost confidence in Joseph Smith and the basic miraculous events of church history. They doubt the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, many of Joseph’s revelations, and much besides. They fall into doubt after going on the Internet and finding shocking information about Joseph Smith based on documents and facts they had never heard before. A surprising number had not known about Joseph Smith’s plural wives. They are set back by differences in the various accounts of the First Vision. They find that Egyptologists do not translate the Abraham manuscripts the way Joseph Smith did, making it appear that the Book of Abraham was a fabrication. When they come across this information in a critical book or read it on one of the innumerable critical Internet sites, they feel as if they had been introduced to a Joseph Smith and a Church history they had never known before. They undergo an experience like viewing the famous picture of a beautiful woman who in a blink of an eye turns into an old hag. Everything changes. What are they to believe?

Often church leaders, parents, and friends, do not understand the force of this alternate view. Not knowing how to respond, they react defensively. They are inclined to dismiss all the evidence as anti-Mormon or of the devil. Stop reading these things if they upset you so much, the inquirer is told. Or go back to the familiar formula: scriptures, prayer, church attendance.

The troubled person may have been doing all of these things sincerely, perhaps even desperately. He or she feels the world is falling apart. Everything these inquirers put their trust in starts to crumble. They want guidance more than ever in their lives, but they don’t seem to get it. The facts that have been presented to them challenge almost everything they believe. People affected in this way may indeed stop praying; they don’t trust the old methods because they feel betrayed by the old system. Frequently they are furious. On their missions they fervently taught people about Joseph Smith without knowing any of these negative facts. Were they taken advantage of? Was the Church trying to fool them for its own purposes?
These are deeply disturbing questions. They shake up everything. Should I stay in the Church? Should I tell my family? Should I just shut up and try to get along? Who can help me?

At this point, these questioners go off in various directions. Some give up on the Church entirely. They find another religion or, more likely these days, abandon religion altogether. Without their familiar Mormon God, they are not sure there is any God at all. They become atheist or agnostic. Some feel the restrictions they grew up with no longer apply. The strength has been drained out of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, and chastity. They partly welcome the new freedom of their agnostic condition. Now they can do anything they please without fear of breaking the old Mormon rules. The results may not be happy for them or their families.

Others piece together a morality and a spiritual attitude that stops them from declining morally, but they are not in an easy place. When they go to church, , they are not comfortable. Sunday School classes and Sacrament meeting talks about Joseph Smith and the early church no longer ring true. How can these people believe these “fairy tales,” the inquirers ask. Those who have absorbed doses of negative material live in two minds: their old church mind which now seems naive and credulous, and their new enlightened mind with its forbidden knowledge learned on the internet and from critical books.

A friend who is in this position described the mindset of the disillusioned member this way:

“Due to the process of learning, which they have gone through, these [two-minded] LDS often no longer accept the church as the only true one (with the only true priesthood authority and the only valid sacred ordinances), but they see it as a Christian church, in which good, inspired programs are found as well as failure and error. They no longer consider inspiration, spiritual and physical healing, personal and global revelation limited to the LDS church. In this context, these saints may attend other churches, too, where they might have spiritual experiences as well. They interpret their old spiritual experiences differently, understanding them as testimonies from God for them personally, as a result of their search and efforts, but these testimonies don’t necessarily have to be seen as a confirmation that the LDS church is the only true one.

“Since the social relationships between them and other ward (or stake) members suffer (avoidance, silence, even mobbing) because of their status as heretics, which is usually known via gossip, and since the extent of active involvement and range of possible callings are reduced because of their nonconformity in various areas, there is a risk that they end up leaving the church after all, because they are simply ignored by the majority of the other members.”

He then offers a recommendation: 

“It is necessary that the church not only shows more support and openness to these ‘apostates’ but also teaches and advises all members, bishops, stake presidents etc., who usually don’t know how to deal with such a situation in terms of organizational and ecclesiastical questions and – out of insecurity – fail to treat the critical member with the necessary love and respect that even a normal stranger would receive.”

Those are the words of someone who has lost belief in many of the fundamentals and is working out a new relationship to the Church. Other shaken individuals recover their belief in the basic principles and events but are never quite the same as before. Their knowledge, although no longer toxic, gives them a new perspective. They tend to be more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed. Here are some of the characteristics of people who have passed through this ordeal but managed to revive most of their old beliefs.

1. They often say they learned the Prophet was human. They don’t expect him to be a model of perfect deportment as they once thought. He may have taken a glass of wine from time to time, or scolded his associates, or even have made business errors. They see his virtues and believe in his revelations but don’t expect perfection.

2. They also don’t believe he was led by revelation in every detail. They see him as learning gradually to be a prophet and having to feel his way at times like most Church members. In between the revelations, he was left to himself to work out the methods of complying with the Lord’s commandments. Sometimes he had to experiment until he found the right way.

3. These newly revived Latter-day Saints also develop a more philosophical attitude toward history. They come to see (like professional historians) that facts can have many interpretations. Negative facts are not necessarily as damning as they appear at first sight. Put in another context along side other facts, they do not necessarily destroy Joseph Smith’s reputation.

4. Revived Latter-day Saints focus on the good things they derive from their faith–the community of believers, the comforts of the Holy Spirit, the orientation toward the large questions of life, contact with God, moral discipline, and many others. They don’t want to abandon these good things. Starting from that point of desired belief, they are willing to give Joseph Smith and the doctrine a favorable hearing. They may not be absolutely certain about every item, but they are inclined to see the good and the true in the Church.

At the heart of this turmoil is the question of trust. Disillusioned Latter-day Saints feel their trust has been betrayed. They don’t know whom to trust. They don’t dare trust the old feelings that once were so powerful, nor do they trust church leaders. They can only trust the new knowledge they have acquired. Those who come back to the Church are inclined to trust their old feelings. Their confidence in the good things they knew before is at least partially restored. But they sort out the goodness that seems still vital from the parts that now seem no longer tenable. Knowledge not only has given them a choice, it has compelled them to choose. They have to decide what they really believe. In the end, many are more stable and convinced than before. They feel better prepared to confront criticism openly, confident they can withstand it.

- - - -

The members of the seminar on “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” a group of Religious Education and CES faculty who met at BYU for six weeks in the summer of 2008, are among those who have known Latter-day Saints in this state of confusion and doubt. We have had many opportunities to talk to questioners about their problems and admit that we have often fallen short in our answers. We came together in hopes of learning to do better. Besides gathering information on a series of specific issues, we have discussed how best to deal with questioning Saints. What way of speaking is most likely to win their trust and convince them we have their best interests at heart?

We began by agreeing that criticisms of Joseph Smith should not be dismissed as foolish or purely evil. The negative attacks that disturb first-time readers are usually based on facts, not merely prejudiced fabrications. To play down the force of the criticism, we believe, only convinces the seekers that we do not understand. We appear to be sweeping trouble under the rug. They may have been devastated by a criticism; we must show that we understand why. Consequently, the seminar took as its first principle to state the negative argument as fully and accurately as we can. We try not to minimize the difficulty or prejudice the case against the critic. In no other way can we persuade the doubters that we understand the problem.

Secondly, we try to avoid dogmatic answers. Rather than replace the dogmatic negative attacks of the critics with our own dogmatic answers, we attempt to show that a more positive interpretation is possible. Critics often claim that Joseph’s sins were so egregious as to utterly disqualify him as a prophet. We can understand their viewpoint, but we think there is another side to the story. Rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip. In the long run, we believe this approach will persuade questioners more effectively than claims to certainty where none is possible. We believe in stating our own strong convictions about the church as a whole, but we do not to pretend to perfect knowledge about complex historical questions.

We know that airing criticisms troubles many Latter-day Saints. Like most Church teachers, the members of the seminar do not want to draw attention to questions that will only unsettle faithful members. But we also feel that silence is not the answer. The absence of instruction troubles questioners more than anything. They feel they have been betrayed because they came through their Church classes ignorant of the devastating information now a few clicks away on the internet. The gaps in their education leave them disillusioned and angry.

To counteract this lack of preparation, the seminar members have taken as our motto the scripture that begins: “As all have not faith, teach one another” (D&C 88:118). We are encouraged by the scriptural recognition that not all have faith, and by the appealing remedy, “teach one another.” For many questioners, loneliness is the heart of the problems. No one seems to understand. We are enjoined by this scripture to find these seekers and bring them into a fellowship of inquiry. We hope that our papers will help Church teachers create safe havens where questions may be asked and answers explored--where we can teach one another.
____________________________________________
Richard L. Bushman is a Professor Emeritus of History, Columbia University, the current holder of the Howard W. Hunter visiting professorship in Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University, and author of the recent biography Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling

 


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: lds; mormon
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 501-503 next last
To: SENTINEL

issues


81 posted on 08/17/2008 1:50:09 PM PDT by DanielLongo (Don't Tread On Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: DanielLongo
Again, accusations without proof.

I see you are familiar with the concept:


 
 

 
 
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
 

82 posted on 08/17/2008 1:50:30 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Ask me anything you like.


83 posted on 08/17/2008 1:51:54 PM PDT by DanielLongo (Don't Tread On Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: DanielLongo

I am rolling on the floor laughing out loud.......Not one dime to bash......stop please so funny....the entire lds movement was based on bashing Christianity.


84 posted on 08/17/2008 1:53:19 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: restornu
The many I heard so far haved received a witness from the Holy Spirit as they swere reading the Book of Mormon.

Poor ol' Isaiah the prophet must be spinning in his grave!

 

ACTS 8:26-40

26.  Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road--the desert road--that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza."
 27.  So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship,
 28.  and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet.
 29.  The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
 30.  Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
 31.  "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
 32.  The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
 33.  In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth."
 34.  The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"
 35.  Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
 36.  As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
 38.  And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
 39.  When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
 40.  Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

85 posted on 08/17/2008 1:54:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: restornu
The many I heard so far haved received a witness from the Holy Spirit as they swere reading the Book of Mormon.

Poor ol' Isaiah the prophet must be spinning in his grave!

 

ACTS 8:26-40

26.  Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road--the desert road--that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza."
 27.  So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship,
 28.  and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet.
 29.  The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
 30.  Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
 31.  "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
 32.  The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
 33.  In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth."
 34.  The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"
 35.  Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
 36.  As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
 38.  And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
 39.  When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
 40.  Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

86 posted on 08/17/2008 1:54:40 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: DanielLongo
I am not Elsie but I will ask.

Who is Jesus?

It is a simple question and there is a simple answer.

87 posted on 08/17/2008 1:54:56 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: DanielLongo
 
If you would like to produce a substantiated claim (ie. not your own wild imaginings) then let us take them one at a time.

 
 

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 14
 
An angel tells Nephi of the blessings and cursings to fall upon the Gentiles—There are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil—The saints of God in all nations are persecuted by the great and abominable church—The apostle John shall write concerning the end of the world. Between 600 and 592 B.C. 
 
   1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
  2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
  3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
  4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
  5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repented not must perish.
  6 Therefore, woe be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
  7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
  8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
  9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
  10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
  11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
  12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
  13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
  14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
  15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
  16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
  17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
  18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
  19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.
  20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
  21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
  22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
  23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
  24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
  25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
  26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
  27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was john, according to the word of the angel.
  28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
  29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.
  30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.
 
88 posted on 08/17/2008 1:55:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: svcw
“We really aren’t obligated to answer everyone’s questions...”

You do not answer because you do not know.

Are you mindreading again?

89 posted on 08/17/2008 1:56:54 PM PDT by restornu (Here comes that feeling again my heart still yearn for what my mind wonÂ’t accept Investigator)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: restornu; Elsie; colorcountry; greyfoxx39
I believe restornu sees much of the same futility that the Lord did in speaking to the chief priests and scribes who had their "Bible" when he said in Luke 22:

67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

90 posted on 08/17/2008 1:59:04 PM PDT by DanielLongo (Don't Tread On Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

Have you ever heard of HaplogroupX and the Hopewell indians?


91 posted on 08/17/2008 2:00:44 PM PDT by DanielLongo (Don't Tread On Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: restornu
Nope.

I am just going by what you do not answer.

I will say it again, you do not answer because you do not know.

Who is Jesus?

So simple a question a much simpler answer.

92 posted on 08/17/2008 2:01:18 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: DanielLongo
Oh no, not the Hopewell Indians bit again, that is two days in a row. Antiquities theft is a serious crime, Dr. Jones would be saddened...
93 posted on 08/17/2008 2:08:45 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39
For someone to preach for money is called priestcraft by the Gospel writers. Funny you didn't address that point.

Ever read the pamphlet intitled "The Menace of Mormonism"? On the back it said "Printed by the Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention". It was distributed by preachers of Baptist churches that were affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

Then another one I remembers was called "The Mormon Puzzle" that was distributed by the Southern Baptist Convention when they held their meeting in Salt Lake City a few years ago. It too was full of much "misinformation".

Those are two witnesses. Enough for the Gospel standard. Enough for you? And yet you can find NONE from the Church attacking another faith.

They preach the truth of the Restored Gospel. They do not preach against any other faith. They don't have to.

Well, at least we agree on something.

94 posted on 08/17/2008 2:14:11 PM PDT by DanielLongo (Don't Tread On Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: sevenbak; Zakeet; colorcountry
sharing incredibly insightful information about the very real, fallible, human being that Joseph Smith was, as all prophets throughout time have been.

Zakeet, evidence here of your comment in post #20..."I believe the bottom line conclusion of the article is absolutely correct: The LDS Church can no longer lie and deny the truth -- they are therefore anxiously, urgently seeking another solution."

Link

Very interesting how the hero of the hymn

PRAISE TO THE MAN

 

1844 version

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus:
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know "Brother Joseph" again.

Chorus

Retrieved from "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Praise_to_the_Man"

  has now become "the very real, fallible, human being".

Side note: The "mormon web-cleaner" has been at work on this hymn. It's not as easy to find as it was a short time ago. I have it archived now.

95 posted on 08/17/2008 2:14:31 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (1992...how many folks had heard of Bill Clinton? John McCain, Eric Cantor for your VP pick!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: svcw; DanielLongo
the entire lds movement was based on bashing Christianity.

One is only a prophet Chirstian when acting like a prophet Christian.

The LDS have never bash Christians but have took counsel from the Lord about those acting in His name only, and not in their hearts.

It is the Lord's authority to say what is true or not, not man's opinion.

JS-H 1: 19 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Isa. 29:
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Matt. 15:
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

96 posted on 08/17/2008 2:15:13 PM PDT by restornu (Here comes that feeling again my heart still yearn for what my mind wonÂ’t accept Investigator)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

The Pet Shop Skit...

Again and again and again...


97 posted on 08/17/2008 2:19:52 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: restornu
Even demons could act like Christians.
Man you are funny tonight.
Ldsers have never bashed Christians - oh way funny.

Acting like a Christian makes one a Christian like living in a garage makes one a car.

Oh by the way you still have not answered Who is Jesus?

98 posted on 08/17/2008 2:20:13 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
I just did. Look it up. There is DNA evidence as well as archaeological evidence, respectively. I'm not going to fill a blog with research papers. If you are too lazy to look it up yourself, I can't help you. There is too much material for three line snipes. You asked. I have told you. The rest is up to you. Now, after having explored it (or while exploring it) ask any question you like. I can't have a conversation with someone who knows nothing of the topics.
99 posted on 08/17/2008 2:20:46 PM PDT by DanielLongo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
To those who have been paid for it! You do nothing more than regurgitate the half truths and outright lies of all the pamphlets you receive. There is nothing insightful to any of your posts.
100 posted on 08/17/2008 2:23:11 PM PDT by DanielLongo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 501-503 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson