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To: Lexinom
Thank you. Yes, God forknows everything that will come to be. God does love me, a sinner, who, while I was yet in my sin, He loved me, and gave Himself for me. God loves every person. He does not love every persons ways.

My premise is not that the highest aim is to save all men, but it is clearly written that it is not the will of God that any should perish. He loved them so much that He became a man and took on my and your sins that we might be reconciled to Him,....not because of who we are, but because of who He is...that God is Love. God is a consuming fire taking vengence on them that know not God. It is not the will of God that some not know Him, but he cannot dispense Mercy at the expence of His Justice. He has provided the only Way for a world of sinners to be reconciled to Him. If they refuse Him they have refused life. But they are not forced to reject as Calvin says, buy they exercise their own volition to reject Him.

You say the elect have no buisness in trying to bring the reprobate to God, yet we are told to go to the highways and hedges and compel them to come to Him. Preach the Word to every creature. These admonitions come from the very God you say we are to believe 'enjoy', for 'His Good Pleasure' burning people in eternal torment, For His Good Pleasure....that is what Calvin taught. That is not the God of the Bible. God takes no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked. I am sure it breaks His heart when a sinner rejects Life eternal for Hell.

Calvinism and his followers have made God out to be the primary and responsible cause of all misery on this planet. While it is difficult (if not impossible) for some Calvinists to admit this (especially to a non-calvinist) Calvin and Calvinism points a very slanderous finger at God. To say that it is "none of our buisness, just Gods' buisness", is irresponsible. You cannot have unconditional election without unconditional reprobation any more than you can have one side of a coin without the other. John Calvin, to his credit, did make this absolutely clear. 1 Tim.2:3-4 says, "God our Savioir desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

In the final analysis one has to make a choice. They must choose either John 3"16, "For God so love the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life", or they believe John Calvin. Me......I'll take the clear, unadulterated teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth every, single time.

55 posted on 08/21/2008 7:58:53 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter
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To: Texas Songwriter
It brings me joy to read those words from you regarding your personal faith. My exhortation (for myself as well): seek the approval of God rather than that of men.

I would know this from you: Where did you get the idea that I said the elect have no business trying to bring the reprobate to God? The clear imperative is to share the Gospel with every living creature.

The knowledge of who is elect and who is not - what God ultimately does with that seeding and watering - is none of our business. Else, why the free offer of the Gospel?

Regarding Calvin's thought, he simply articulated the inclination of every unregenerate human being. All of us. No one is righteous, not one seeketh after God. That is our natural, tragic state of sin. What a tragedy indeed! What we need is a miracle.

See, this is the very difficult part for us, as mere men: reconciling the Scriptures. I made this point to another gentleman here this evening, about lifting particular ones above others. The difficult part - the same Jesus of Nazerth also spoke the clear, unadulterated words of John 6:44: "No one can come to me except the Father that sent me draw him." We could get into a dueling verses battle and go all night, and yet accomplish little. The same Bible that contains the one contains the other as well. My conclusions, imperfect as they are because I am a sinful man, are based on that. God is not schizophrenic, nor a God of confusion, nor unable to save - we pray for unsaved loved ones in the hope that God will hear our prayer and work mighty works by His spirit to bring the dead to life. Ultimately, it is up to - not the creature, but the Creator. Otherwise is to deny His sovereignty, and place the creature on the Creator's throne. "Thy will, not mine, be done."

As to God causing all misery: volition vs. permission. God's mercy is seen through saving out of the mass of fallen humanity those that He has chosen - to the praise of His glorious grace. He permitted man to fall into sin, by the instigation of Satan the deceiver. He did not volitionally, willfully cause the fall however, the very thought of which is blasphemy. Yet it is all in His plan, and all brings glory ultimately to God. The Spirit-wrought seed of saving faith spoken of in John 3:16 - the glory goes to God for His love through Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

It has not pleased God to give us a simple formula. He gave us the whole Bible - would that we all spend more time in God's Word! Unless we are willing to compromise its inerrency - in which case we call into question the whole of its authority and the basis for our blessed hope - we must take it as it is and, working in a prayerful and humble spirit, draw conclusions from there. That is the work of the theologian and should be the duty of every believer.

You are quite correct about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, to which I respond with a hearty yea and amen. He is the Way to eternal life. Remember that ALL of His teachings are there for us.

56 posted on 08/21/2008 8:38:07 PM PDT by Lexinom
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