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To: Lexinom
The fact that God offers the kind of help that an unregenerate unbeliever needs so that he can choose to believe in Christ for salvation is to be found the the very context that says "God Draws", No one come to Me unless the Father...draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

The Calvinists says that because God must draw many people cannot believe and be saved. In doing so, they give the unsaved an excuse for their unbelief and lostness. Jesus suggests that God draws so that all men can believe and be saved and so that no one will have an excuse for not believing. Both Calvinsts and non-Calvinist Evangelical recognize that God draws and that if He did not draw a man to Christ , no man would or could believe in Christ. The Calvinist, however, uses this word "draw" to exclude (in his thinking and theology) most of the lost from ever becoming saved. It is, however, the drawing work of God that makes it possible for all unabelievers to abecome believers. Exactly what he does to draw us we are not told in this passage. Perhaps John 16:8 hold the answer. Jesus says, "When He (the Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of rightousness adn of judgement."

Whatever the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is, it is work on the world. He does not (in this context) have the church in focus. That is, our Lord had the lost in mind, not the saved. John 1:7 says, "This man came for a witness to bear witness of the Light, that ALL through him might believe". John 3:15-18 is so frequently quoted that I will not restate it here. In John 12:32, we read, "..if I am lifted up from the earth I will DRAW all people to Myself."The New King James version uses the word "people" instead of "men" which many translators do use. So, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to Myself." Thus if the drawing referred to in John 6:44 (ie.by the Father) can be translated fored, coerced, or dragged, could we not say the same for the drawing in John 12:12-13 (by the Son) If being drawn to Christ leads necessarily and inevitably to saving faith in Christ, it would lead to universalism, which Calvinists rightly reject. John 6:44 does say that everyone that comes to Christ must be enabled to do so, and in fact is enabled to do so by being drawn. It does not tell us that everyone who is drawn to Christ comes to Christ. Even so, Calvin taught"To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist...says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this...no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected.

True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, theerefore, thatn non are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey Him."

BKeing enabled to come to Christ and actually coming to Christ, and necessarily coming (being compelled) are not the same. The ability to come to Christ is from God alone. The responsibility to come belief in Christ, is ours. The question is not, as Calvinists suggest, "can a lost and spiritually impotent man resist an all powerful God who has determined to save a person not matter what?" Instead, the question is "has God determined to save such a person no matter what?" The scriptures respond with a resounding, NO!

On another subject. You say, "Where did you get the idea that I said the elect have no buisness trying to bring the reprobate to God? As a Calvinist, why would you even try. It cannot be done according to Calvinist distinctives. God thunders out to you, "Thou shalt not lie!" Then you say he tells you to go forth and lie to the reprobate, telling them that they can have everlasting life if they come to Jesus, with you knowing that, according to Calvinism, that is not true. Why do you assert that God tempts the reprobate, when the scripture clearly says God does not tempt any to sin.

I could go on, but it is late. Have a good night.

57 posted on 08/21/2008 9:19:39 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter
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To: Texas Songwriter; Lexinom; Gamecock
The fact that God offers the kind of help that an unregenerate unbeliever needs so that he can choose to believe in Christ for salvation is to be found the the very context that says "God Draws", No one come to Me unless the Father...draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

Keep reading...

"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65

Do all men "come unto" Christ? No. Therefore the Father does not give all men the ability to come to Christ through the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who regenerates their spirits and renews their minds and gives them new eyes and new ears and a new heart.

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10


67 posted on 08/22/2008 1:45:43 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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