What's wrong with Catholic voters? What's wrong with Catholics?

Catholic Culture ^ | November 5, 2008 | Phil Lawler

[Philo-Junius]

Assuming that God did not manufacture the universe to only LOOK 14 billion years old is not the same as excluding the miraculous in all areas covered by the Bible.

[SoothingDave]

Ahem--that's if you assume uniformitarianism, that from the very first instant of existence all natural laws and all physical realities have operated exactly as they do now (the gestation period has always been nine months, no one has ever lived nine hundred years, etc.). Then in the name of scientific uniformitarianism I demand that you admit that dead people can't come back to life, water doesn't change into wine, and transubstantiation simply cannot take place. You have absolutely no excuse other than the most bald-faced hypocrisy (or else a knee-jerk prejudice against "those Bible-thumpers") in order to maintain this inconsistency.

Let me get this straight. If we believe that the laws of nature and physics have remained the same since the time of creation, we are being "inconsistent"?

Miracles are miracles exactly because they are incidents where the Divine suspends normal physical laws.

I see no Biblical reason to assume that time and space behaved differently thousands of years ago. That would seem to make scientific revelation a game of "gotcha."

God made the world and saw that it was good. I don't think he hid fossils of dinosaurs and changed the way carbon behaves just so He could damn people who looked to His Creation for clues about Him.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Assuming that God did not manufacture the universe to only LOOK 14 billion years old is not the same as excluding the miraculous in all areas covered by the Bible.

You evidently didn't read my last post.

The universe only "looks" fourteen billion years old if you choose to assume uniformitarianism. I suppose you're one of those people who insists that G-d could not have created Adam as an adult without "lying" (because such an Adam would have had "the appearance of age")?

As I said, since you assume uniformitarianism with regard to physical processes, you have no excuse to abandon it when it comes to the new testament.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Let me get this straight. If we believe that the laws of nature and physics have remained the same since the time of creation, we are being "inconsistent"?

Miracles are miracles exactly because they are incidents where the Divine suspends normal physical laws.

I see no Biblical reason to assume that time and space behaved differently thousands of years ago. That would seem to make scientific revelation a game of "gotcha."

Of course you don't, because you regard the Torah as primitive mythology adapted from the Babylonians. You therefore don't seem capable of understanding a very simple principal--that the universe didn't start to operate until it was completed. Thus plants before sun and moon, a human gestation period of only a few minutes, etc. And even then there were three periods of deterioration (the sin, the Flood, and the Dispersion). But you are one of those people who says that consistency means that the only alternative to absolute uniformitarianism would be a gigantic Paul Klee painting, aren't you? "If what you say is true, then how do I know my cat won't breathe fire on me?" Is that how it goes?

God made the world and saw that it was good. I don't think he hid fossils of dinosaurs and changed the way carbon behaves just so He could damn people who looked to His Creation for clues about Him.

Let's get this straight . . . "damnation" is part of your religion, not mine. I guess that makes you the "redneck" on that issue.

[SoothingDave]

It’s very simple really. Either you believe God reveals Himself through study of his Creation or you don’t.

I don’t ascribe to the notion that God created the universe in order to deceive us when we study it.

Since you seem to believe direct Divine revelation is intended to contradict what our senses tell us, could you be kind enough to tell us exactly where in Scripture you find this?

[narses]

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

[kassie]

I am Catholic, I vote PROLIFE. I can’t for the life of me figure out how the person sitting in front, behind or beside me can vote democrat. It saddens me beyond belief.

[Melian]

“They belatedly realized that their sinful complicity with liberal politicians will probably lead to enactment of the so-called Freedom of Choice Act and thence to the complete destruction of Catholic Charities and Catholic hospitals as well. But they woke up too late to affect the election, and FAR too late to make up for their neglect of their duties over the last 30 years or so.”

Yes, but will they be able to admit to themselves that this is the reason, or will they blame the parishioners for ignoring their 11th hour call to orthodoxy?

I was so proud of them for speaking out so strongly. I hope they will not cease. The flock needs teaching and guidance and leadership, not platitudes. We need real homilies full of the real truth, not feel good calls to kumbaya.

[Melian]

Thank you for posting this! I have been desolate over the Catholic vote for Obama. My Catholic friends and family have shocked me to the core by voting for him. At least I now know that roughly half of those sitting in Mass with me did not vote for him.

At least that’s something.

[AKA Elena]

Good Luck with your Monsignor.

I have been going to post the letter I wrote to each of our parish priests, including our Monsignor pastor about the fact that for the last three years there has not even been mention of October being Respect Life month, let alone any presence at the entrances of the volunteers (there are several) who cover the three parishes here in this valley.

At any rate I was totally frank with my disenchantment with my parish about never hearing a word from the pulpit against the sins that are comprised in the moral absolutes ... with an emphasis on abortion for the last three years. That is the length of time that we have had this pastor, perhaps slightly longer.

I copied and pasted the pictures of the Bishops we had on one thread and included the links to what they had said, and the excerpts from each.

I challenged respectfully their never preaching about any morality of any kind ... just that 60's version of Christ being Love and the variety of sermons which attended each Reading and Gospel for the day/week.

Incredibly, I was answered via email by Monsignor "Steve". His answer had to do with the Democrats being "into" the charitable share the wealth thing and he regretted that I might find it difficult to vote for the Democrats because of their support of some things which (unnamed, mind you) might be offensive to a Catholic. He never mentioned abortion except to allude to the fact that he had never received an instruction to so preach against the baby killer we now have. He said he could not preach against anyone without the President of the California Bishops instructing him to do so.

Anyway, this has filled my heart with terrific sadness and I expected that Obama would win because I felt there was so much prayer missing from where I live and worship.

Well, that is the basic fact of what happened in my Parish (one of the largest in the nation) and I can't tell you how my prayers have been infected by this omission here at "home". Father Steve called me by name and was very friendly in the letter, but missed or remissed the point of my letter.

I am sorry to have gone on so -- but I have wanted to share ... and frogjerk's post just compelled me to respond.

What are we going to do, my Catholic and Evangelical and Christian and Jewish brothers and sisters? We must do something and I am struck dumb as to the right approach to such monumental threats to our beloved country and to the world.

[Elvina]

Less than committed Catholics and protestants do not consider their faith when voting and simply vote for what they believe are their self interests.

It is interesting that their self-interests also including fooling themselves into thinking they are doing a favor for the poor by electing Democrats. None of the Democrats' programs for the poor have worked so far: New Deal, Great Society, public housing, etc. They have only succeeded in destroying the family. My observation is that some well-off "Christians" are so self-identified with imagining that they care about "the little guy", that they feel justified in blatantly ignoring the littlest guys (the pre-born). This election cycle has inspired us to leave our old "peace & justice" parish and drive an extra 1/2 hour to go to a strongly pro-life parish. After visiting and hearing a homily where the priest stated in no uncertain terms that you were complicit in evil if you vote for a pro-abortion candidate and seeing that every Mass was concluded with a pro-life prayer, I knew that we had to migrate to where the priests and people were not afraid to stand up for God's truth.

[iacovatx]

This was nor a criticism of you—read again—sorry it was unclear. It was a criticism of people who assume, without thinking, that a Dem is for the poor, etc.

[ArrogantBustard]

And yet very, very, very, very few do [read Genesis absolutely literally]. Why?

I'll leave that for them to discuss. My intent all along was to address these two points:

1) That Adam and Eve were real people, really created by God as people, living at a real time, committed a real act of disobedience to God, and we are ALL descended from him. This is a matter of defined doctrine in the Catholic Faith. Denial of it is heresy.

2) The Church allows some 'flexibility' in understanding Genesis. This flexibility most definitely includes absolute literalism.

If I have successfully communicated these two related points, then I have accomplished what I set out to do.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thank you for your words.

[jla]

Before answering that question, let me cite one more vitally important piece of polling information: Among Catholic voters who attend Mass weekly, McCain won majority support: 54- 45%. Among those who do not attend weekly Mass, the margin for Obama was an overwhelming 61- 37%. Thus Obama drew his support from inactive Catholics. And unfortunately, most American Catholics are inactive.

I am surprised, and very disappointed, that amongst 'active' Catholics only 54% voted for McCain. A slight of, and lack of faith in, the senator? For Gov Palin embodies Catholic tenets much more so then many actual members of this Church.

[LuxMaker]

I Corinthians 3:16-20
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a];
20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b]

How long until God acts on this promise? All you pro-lifers out there, please pray for it.

Here in Colorado, people overwhelmingly voted down the measure to define life at the point of conception. I will pray every day for the above scripture to be actualized as the prophet Jonah called for repentance and there was none, metaphorically speaking.

[LuxMaker]

See my above post for the solution.

[iacovatx]

Hi,
It was poor wording on my part—not a personal attack. I had agreed with the poster and wanted to extend the comments. Sorry for the confusion but the last thing I would have done is make a personal attack on the message poster.

[Snurple]

Doesn’t surprise me. Lots of folks call themselves Christian, Protestant and Catholic alike. few actually know Christ. Its like being in a club anymore.

[Jim Noble]

A mob was chasing a man down a street in Belfast. He took a wrong turn down a blind alley, and was trapped.

As the mob cornered him, they demanded to know, "Are you Protestant or Catholic?"

Relieved, the trapped man laughed and said, "I'm an athiest".

"OK, fine", said the mob leader. "But are you a Protestant athiest or a Catholic athiest?"