Posted on 12/27/2008 2:48:02 PM PST by NYer
Q. Why can’t Protestants receive communion at the Catholic Church?
A. To protect them from Judgment.
1 Corinthians 11: 27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be
guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Since, Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as we do, they do not discern or recognize that Jesus’ body is present under the appearance of bread and wine. We would be allowing them to eat and drink judgment upon themselves. The prohibtion is actually very charitable but, unfortunately, it is usually seen as a rejection.
Evidence of this interpretation of this passage is supported by St. Justin the Martyr :
“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…”
-Justin Martyr -FIRST APOLOGY, 66,20–(150 A.D.)
Q. Why do we call the bread “The Host”?
A. Our use of this term, to refer to the consecrated bread, comes from the Latin word hostia, which means ‘victim’. We believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the consecrated bread and wine on our altars. The mass is a re-presentation of the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross. Therefore, Jesus is the victim of sacrifice and we call the bread the host/victim to help us remember that it is no longer bread but the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ given to us to strengthen and keep us on the journey to Heaven.
“I realized it was a game.”
Sort of like indulgences and purgatory.
Sorry, doesn't wash.
How do I deny our Lord? Please explain how believing that the Last Supper was to be symbolic means I am denying Christ.
For if you do that, then I charge you deny to even pray as our Lord directed, in that you refuse to say the entire Lord's Prayer, omitting the ending that only the mass celebrant recites. Does that mean your prayers are empty and denying of Christ?
In fact, I will claim that you do a dishonor to the Last Supper because you do not wipe the threshold with fresh lamb's blood as required to remember and faithfully reproduct the Last Supper (Passover).
Are you so sure of your doctrine that you will second guess the words of Christ himself when He states it is by faith that we are saved, it is not by actions? Do you place your doctrine above the words of God?
“Please explain how believing that the Last Supper was to be symbolic means I am denying Christ.”
Not one of the Church Fathers ever believed as you do, they ALL knew that Our Lord was and is and always will be present in the Holy Eucharist. You choose, there is ONE WAY to God and that is through Our Lord. Period. One Church, one Truth. You choose.
“I do however, believe I am free to walk away from Him...”
I am just telling you what we believe. And it is based on scripture. I wish I could quote the verses, but I’m not a minister. I’m sure that our pastor could do so.
Frankly, I am not sure why God would have such a rule, but according to the scriptures, he does. That’s his prerogative. The whole of salvation is no different. We don’t deserve it. But he gives it to us in any event. It’s based upon his love for us. We’re not worthy. But he is, and that’s his rule.
I’m not sure our beliefs are really any different from yours, except perhaps in theory. I’m not sure that Adam and Eve walked away from God. They sinned, but we all sin. Sin is not the issue. Faith is the issue. Sin is something we try not to do because God tells us not to do it. If you do it willfully, then maybe you never really believed. Why else would you do it willfully... if you really did believe?
The real question (if you’re a Baptist at least) is why faith is so important. I’ve wrestled with that question for a long time. I don’t think I truly understand it, but thee scriptures are very emphatic that it is, and who am I to question it? God may have his reasons. He may simply be trying to distinguish between those who want to have a relationship with him, and those who don’t. But irrespective of his reasons, he sets the rules, and it is up to us to decide whether we will play by his rules, or pay the consequences.
“contstantly warns us of loss of salvation.”
Where? I would be very interested in such a verse.
Because the Bible verses for the day are planned out in advance and are printed in the missalettes in the pews.
Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)
Please explain how ANYONE can be "unworthy" or "guilty" of a "symbol."
God offers Salvation, and salvation is not something we could accomplish, so He must be the Author and Finisher (that’s scritptural). He has promised Salvation in return for our acknowledging our inability to accomplish it and our trust in Him to do it. If we could not accomplish the Salvation, because He has pormised to be author and finisher, only He can accomplish Salvation. Satan cannot defeat Him so your salvation cannot be taken from His hand, even by you once you are in His family,because it is His Spirit in you, the earnest of your promised inheritance, that testifies you are Saved, Have been Saved, and will be Saved. How powerful would His promises be if you could abrogate once you accpet that which He promises?
“And we are all saved, regardless of what we believe in terms of doctrine if we have a personal relationship with Christ.”
Every Catholic in a State of Grace does have a personal, physical relationship with Our Lord. Q. E. D.
You admit then that every Catholic in a State of Grace is saved, no?
So my friend who grew up Catholic and attended mass with her husband and lived a Catholic lifestyle is lying to me??
And you know this how? The early Church was quite fractured; witness the whole "can Gentiles be Christians" or the issue of circumcision. Or even the split of Timothy and Paul. Far from the unified doctrine you claim, it was quite unsettled.
What WAS settled, and what apparently many now forget, was that what mattered was the personal faith. The actions was irrelevant; if a man believes in his heart that Jesus Christ is Lord then he is saved. Communion not required; where does the Lord say we need to have communion in order to be saved?
Personally, I believe that communion is symbolic and meant to remind everyone who partakes in communion that Christ died for us. And I believe there is plenty of scriptural and historical support for that position. Does that mean I am a heretic? If you are going to annoint yourself as Jesus and determine my salvation then so be it.
I would merely point you to your own Church and the Lanteren Council in 1215 to realize that it was NOT settled doctrine within the Catholic church for the first 1200 years. Far from it, in fact...
But when you put doctrine above the actual words of Christ, I think you have made your decision of what is really your god. The CHURCH is not an institution or doctrine or a set of missals; WE - believers - are the BODY of Christ. WE are the Church. The structure is a convenient way of gathering, but the Church cannot save you. Only Jesus can. Elevating the Church above a personal relationship with Jesus IS heretical and is in direct contradiction with His own words.
If they have a personal relationship with Christ, and have accepted Him through faith as their Savior, then yes! Where have I argued otherwise?
Conversely, those who are not Catholic are being told in this very thread that they cannot have communion with Christ, that a Protestant communion is meaningless, and that we have fallen from the "TRUE" church.
Are those the actions of a Christian? Are we not all the body of Christ? Or are only those who pray the rosary worthy of His salvation?
We are on the same page. :~)
Not true...The Pharisees knew that the Egyptian Pharoh had sorcerers who could peform what could be called miracles...
These Pharisees accused Jesus of being Bealzebub...They also did not believe He was God...
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus was not 'religious'...That's what the problem was...
Those who deny the Eucharist is Christ who have full knowledge that God is capable of transubstantiation do the same thing.
Nonsense...You got the first part wrong...You got the second part wrong...
The Catholic Eucharist is works...It is you having to do something for salvation...
It's already done...Jesus did everything there is to do...We just have to believe it and ask Him to be our Saviour...And if you haven't done that, you can eat a loaf of those wafers every day of the week and you'll still go to Hell...
Now you're really going off the deep end...Some of us read your church history...So we know better...
The Anglican/Episcopal churches at least, and I think also the Lutherans, claim valid apostolic succession, and I believe that this is recognized by Rome.
-ccm
Yep. Pure and simple, yep.
“The Anglican/Episcopal churches at least, and I think also the Lutherans, claim valid apostolic succession, and I believe that this is recognized by Rome.”
Nope. Sorry.
Wrong again.
satan walked away. so did 1/3 of the angels. Free will is free will. We sin, that is a seperation from God. We must ask his forgiveness and confess our sin. Should one choose not to do that, we can walk with him no more as well.
As to salvation, he offers it to us. He died for you and me. We can choose to accept or not. We can choose to continue in his grace or not. Most sins committed by christians are not those which would seperate fully. They are due to our fallen nature, such as a loss of temper or some other thing, these are not intentional. Intent is the key to making sin truly seperate us from God. It must be grave matter, and intentional, with forethought. If you had time to think about it, even for a split second, and it was a subject of grave matter, and you said you don’t care, your doing it anyway, that is a serious, or mortal, sin. This removes santifying grace from our lives until we repent, confess, and have true contrition for that sin. God gives us limitless opportunity to return to Him, up until the moment of death. His mercy is his justice, and his justice is his mercy, praise be to God!
We are not far apart on our belief. I only pointed out that one can, in fact, forfeit their salvation by choice. I guess the word lose freaks people out. No one can earn it, deserve it, or warrant it. This is the reason we baptise infants. There is no truer gift than one that is not asked for. Infants did nothing but be born and brought to God for his Gift of Salvation. They do not have a list of items to complete first, as that would mean works are performed. If you have to believe, confess, ask, and then be baptised, you tried to earn it, IMHO. That is why Jesus was circumscised at 8 days old, as are all Jews. They are Jews by the very fact that their parents are, much as Catholic babies are catholic by the very fact that their parents are. Jesus came to fufill the law, not change it. If babies were part of it for Jews, then they would be for Catholics as well. This however, is another topic.
As to faith- the definition of faith is important to understand in order to see its relevance in Gods plan. Faith is believing in something, unseen. The very nature of faith is important considering all that Jesus was going to ask of his followers. Remember Thomas, when he was not present in the upper room when Jesus first appeared. He said he would not believe unless he touched his wounds and saw him? Well, Jesus said blessed are those who believe without seeing. He knew we, not He, would need our faith in order to sustain us. He knew what was coming; how the martyrs would be thrown to the lions, crucified, drawn and quartered. Even now, when the world is such a mess- faith sustains us. Faith that the Eucharist is Him coming in the flesh to sustain us each week. Faith that the apostles who saw him in the flesh had it no better than us for it. He who promised he would be with us always, until the end of the age. Faith is what it all hinges on. Logical, reasonable, sound reasons for knowing Jesus is Lord, and being able to give an account for your belief.
did you ever try to sell something you didn’t believe in? A car, a product? You can always tell when the salesman doesn’t believe in what he is selling. No faith in his product. That is why you can always tell a false christian- if you listen. They worry about money, power, ect. They don’t believe in Christ. Don’t worry, his sheep know his voice :)
As to the loss of salvation verses. I will make a list and privately email you as this is Waaaay too long already.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.