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1 posted on 01/27/2009 6:59:07 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl; CottShop; GodGunsGuts; hosepipe; marron; metmom; spirited irish; djf; svcw; valkyry1; ..
My deep thanks and appreciation to Alamo-Girl and CottShop for kindly agreeing to read the draft and for suggesting improvements, almost all of which were implemented. (And they'd all have been, had we not run out of space!)

Thank you so very much, A-G and CS!

2 posted on 01/27/2009 7:04:20 AM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop

There is no such thing as a “compelling case” for abject stupidity.


3 posted on 01/27/2009 7:06:26 AM PST by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: betty boop

Thank you for this post!


4 posted on 01/27/2009 7:06:31 AM PST by DBCJR (What would you expect?)
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To: betty boop

In layman’s terms, explain Williams’ Autopoietic Model, part v.


7 posted on 01/27/2009 7:12:56 AM PST by randog (Tap into America!)
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To: betty boop
Reminds me of being forced to attend past sales meetings where dress, jargon, cell phone colors, advert pamphlet layout/impact were much much important than the speakers understanding (having a freeking clue) the function, future capacity, and design theories of a newly designed product pushed by our customers and available for market.

Sales people are not allowed into my labs unless accompanied by corporate.

8 posted on 01/27/2009 7:12:58 AM PST by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: betty boop
Note here that, so far, science has not identified any naturalistic source for “information” within the universe, biological or otherwise. And yet it appears that living organisms remain living only so long as they are “successfully communicating” information.

That could be a very long time, considering that single-celled organisms are essentially immortal. Programmed cell death is a rather modern invention in living things, a requirement of having specialized cells.

9 posted on 01/27/2009 7:13:49 AM PST by js1138
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To: betty boop

Seriously though, my earlier post is not a slam.....the basis of the article is the thinking that has progressed for AI to become an everyday reality very soon.


10 posted on 01/27/2009 7:16:52 AM PST by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: betty boop

Excellent.


13 posted on 01/27/2009 7:26:31 AM PST by varmintman
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To: betty boop

I don’t see any reference to Szostak in your essay. Is there a reason?


20 posted on 01/27/2009 7:46:22 AM PST by js1138
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To: betty boop

29 posted on 01/27/2009 8:15:56 AM PST by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: betty boop

It’s only Shannon Theory, not Shannon Law


31 posted on 01/27/2009 8:21:19 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel - Horace Walpole)
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To: betty boop
About the section quoted below....

All proteins have neither DNA nor RNA, that is why they are called “proteins” they are made up of a chain of amino acids coded for by DNA in the form of a messenger RNA. The Prion protein has just as much “DNA” and “RNA” as any other gene product, in that a prion protein is coded for by a DNA gene using an RNA intermediary.

The “prion problem” is that they are misfolded, and can apparently, when ingested, make native proteins misfold as well.

When you say “In the Shannon model, prions would be incoherent in the channel because they have no discernible message” that would also be true of any protein, or any misfolded protein if you assume the “message” of any functional protein is that it is able to perform its function.

In other words the very first thing I read was a mess that made no sense to anybody who understand the science of molecular biology; but no worries, I don't think the target audience either desires or possesses such knowledge.

“Prions — typified as non-autonomous protein noise/mutation contributing to successful/failed communication (protein crystallization). Prions are protein molecules that have neither DNA nor RNA. Currently, prions are the suspected cause of bovine spongiform encephalopathy — Mad Cow Disease. In the Shannon model, prions would be incoherent in the channel because they have no discernible message; that is, neither DNA nor RNA. Thus the prion would lead to channel or decoding malfunctions.”

36 posted on 01/27/2009 8:26:46 AM PST by allmendream ("He who does not work shall not eat")
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To: betty boop

Absolutely outstanding betty boop!


109 posted on 01/27/2009 11:27:58 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: betty boop

Thanks for posting.


133 posted on 01/27/2009 12:02:10 PM PST by FreedomProtector
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To: betty boop
" Information is further defined by its independence from physical determination:

Information doesn't exist independent of the physcal machinery that gives rise to it, or holds it as a configuration of physical reality. One can not define the underlying physics out of any instance of reality. Any and every instance of information requires an underlying physical reality to support it. Without that underlying reality to support the instance, there can be no instance.

"In a computer, as information theory shows, the content is manifestly independent of its material substrate. No possible knowledge of a computer’s materials can yield any information whatsoever about the actual content of its computations. In the usual hierarchy of causation, they reflect the software or ‘source code’ used to program the device; and, like the design of the computer itself, the software is contrived by human intelligence.

Information theory relies on a generalized physical machine. You wrote down a diagram of that generalized physical machine, which is required for any and every instance of information to exist. The only independence there is here, is from any particular instance(s) of the underlying supporting physical machinery.

Note there's no point in mentioning that an examination of the computer's materials won't allow one to uncover any instance of information. The physical machinery of the computer can be examined though, and any instance of information that exists on it uncovered. The same goes for the machinery of mind that created the computer and any instantiaiton of software that exists, because of either machine.

"The failure of purely physical theories to describe or explain information reflects Shannon’s concept of entropy and his measure of ‘news.’

Physical theory covers the required underly pohysics of the machinery that makes possible any and every instance of information. Without the underlying physics, there can be no information.

"Information is defined by its independence from physical determination: If it is determined, it is predictable and thus by definition not information."

Reality can't be defined out of reality. If information is determined, it's simply determined. That says nothing about predictability.

" Yet Darwinian science seemed to be reducing all nature to material causes.” — George Gilder, “Evolution and Me,” National Review, July 17, 2006, p. 29f. "

The particulars of Biology covers the function, appearence and development of the physical machinery of the various organisms. All that's needed to know and understand Biology is contained in the underlying physics.

149 posted on 01/27/2009 12:36:08 PM PST by spunkets
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To: betty boop

IBT *It’s not science, it’s religious apologetics* crowd.


216 posted on 01/27/2009 3:41:41 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: betty boop

If what you have written purports to be science, why is it posted in the Religion Forum?


237 posted on 01/27/2009 6:12:16 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: betty boop

bump for a good paper. Thanks for the read. 8-)


251 posted on 01/27/2009 7:31:36 PM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: betty boop

bookmark for later


276 posted on 01/27/2009 11:25:44 PM PST by smokingfrog (T.A.R.P. = Viagra for politicians and you get screwed.)
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To: betty boop
And yet it appears that living organisms remain living only so long as they are “successfully communicating” information. When that process stops, the organism dies; i.e., becomes subject to the second law of thermodynamics — the consequences of which the now-deceased organism had managed to optimally distance itself from while alive.

Why does the 2nd law of thermodynamics only apply to organisms after they die? Can their information content still be communicated? And why or why not?

283 posted on 01/28/2009 6:58:26 AM PST by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what an Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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