Posted on 01/28/2009 10:12:41 PM PST by Gamecock
“I don’t see your point. Belief is not a work. It’s something we adhere to, we take on.”
... in other words, it’s something WE must do. We must adhere. We must take on.
For the Calvinist, that concept in anathema. You don’t DO anything. It is done TO you.
And that, it out of step with the Bible.
“The scriptures are clear that God is the source of saving faith”
It is also clear that God is the source of all good things. That God is the source of “talents” is a given. What we do with the “talents” determines our eternal destiny.
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“and though we think we are free in what we do, behind our plans and desires are those of God”
Friend, did God predestine you to commit the sins you committed yesterday?
“Hence, grace alone.”
Here’s my point, “What must I DO to be saved...?”
Bible says, “DO this...”
Calvinism says, “DO nothing. If your ‘chosen’ it will be done to you.”
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8, 9
Here’s idea! For all the people who haven’t accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, because they don’t know if they are one of the chosen. Choose to be chosen! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!”
An excellent idea!
No problem. ;^)
Amen! He who declared the end from the beginning. Aren't we the most fortunate of men and women to be given knowledge of this fact through the word of God?
"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand" -- Isaiah 14:24
Amen! Welcome back. We’ve missed you!
And if you DO the right thing then God OWES you Heaven, right?
Basically you are saying that by you performing correctly you make God your debtor.
Thanks Dr. E.
I missed you too. ;^)
“And if you DO the right thing then God OWES you Heaven, right? Basically you are saying that by you performing correctly you make God your debtor.”
By stepping off a sinking ship on to a Coast Guard cutter that has come to rescue you, could you honestly claim to have “saved yourself”?
Conversely, by refusing to climb aboard that same cutter, you would, in fact, be guilty of damning yourself.
That is the Biblical model. People must agree to be saved. And people can, by their refusal to accept the freely offered salvation, damn themselves.
“Friend, did God predestine you to commit the sins you committed yesterday?”
God brings about all human decisions, even sinful ones:
Gen. 45:5-8; “Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.”
Judges 14:4; “But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.”
2 Sam 24 1:1-4; “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people. And Joab said unto the king, now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing? Notwithstanding the king’s word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.”
Luke 22:22; “And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!”
Acts 2:23-24; “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”
Rev 17:17; “For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.”
He hardened Pharaoh’s heart and others:
Ex 4:21; “And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.”
Ex. 7:3; “And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.”
Deut. 2:30; “But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.”
Joshua 11:18-20; “Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.”
1 Sam. 2:25; “If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.”
2 Chron. 25:20; “But Amaziah would not hear; for it came of God, that he might deliver them into the hand of their enemies, because they sought after the gods of Edom.”
But all of this was for God’s own purposes,
Rom. 9:17-23; “For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”
Unless the Coast Guard guys came and carried you onto their ship then ultimately yes, you have saved yourself by taking that step under your own power.
That is the Biblical model. People must agree to be saved. And people can, by their refusal to accept the freely offered salvation, damn themselves.
No, the Biblical model is that you were DEAD in trespasses and sin. D-E-A-D dead.
Outside of a George Romero film how many dead people do you see DOING anything . . . other than rotting?
Have you conceded that by DOING the right thing you've made God your debtor?
I would answer you and say that Saved by Grace is indeed valid but an essential part of this is acknowledging belief by doing (repenting) and not just paying lip service on Sundays.
“God brings about all human decisions, even sinful ones:”
Now, wait a minute...
You are telling me that you believe God predestined, preplanned, foreordained, plotted out and caused to happen the SINS you committed yesterday?
If that’s what your theology brings you to, you need to drop your theology and get back to the plain, simple teachings of the Bible.
Look at this...
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:”
neither
tempteth
he
any
man.
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One of my main arguments against Calvinism is that it, if taken to it’s logical conclusion, it should lead people to agnosticism.
Why agnosticism? Because a Calvinist must conclude that there is nothing you can truly know about God. You can not trust that what He tells you to do is actually what He wants you to do. In the Calvinist universe, Got predestines people to the very things He has commanded them not to do.
You know the Bible tells us not to do certain evil things. Yet you state that you believe God has predestine you to do those things.
This is logically consistent with your theology, but it is not consistent with the Bible.
What! you mean to say, that you didn't know that God was just a dirty old man? :^)
If that's what you think then may I humbly suggest you reread your bible.
Let me also point you to the third chapter of the Westminster Confession of Faith for a better explanation of God's Decree along with the Scriptures used to justify their statements.
“...then ultimately yes, you have saved yourself by taking that step under your own power.”
The person claiming to have “saved themselves”, (i.e. entirely responsible for their own rescue), under such conditions would be an arrogant blow hard and would be entirely wrong.
But there is an appropriate use of the term as Peter used here:
“And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.”
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“No, the Biblical model is that you were DEAD in trespasses and sin. D-E-A-D dead.”
DEAD as in dead to God, i.e. relationally cut off.
Dead as in, “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”
Was the Prodigal Son incapable of any actions?
He was “dead”.
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Furthermore, the Biblical model is ALSO that we are sick.
“But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.”
I guarantee you, I can come up with any theology I want to, and then find Scriptures to justify what I believe, and probably convince many others along the way, to believe in my theology, but that doesn’t make my theology correct.
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