Posted on 02/16/2009 1:09:50 PM PST by TaraP
The seals haven’t been opened yet. The AC very well may be among us. I have 4 potential candidates in mind. Nothing but God’s timing is holding him back.
After the letters to the seven churches, John is given the call to "come up hither." This would signify the rapture-
That would be John being brought into the heavenly court and the presence of God, like old testament prophets before him (explictly recounted by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Michiah).
Oh? Got a cite?
The problem I have with that is those who are saved during the Tribulation period. Do they not have the Holy Spirit? Not that I rule out a rapture pre or mid-Trib, just making a point.
The problem with American eschatology is that we assume a rapture out of prosperity, and that things won’t get bad before the Tribulation starts. I don’t think America will even be here as we know it. There will be a total world economic collapse, chaos, desperation, and death, out of which will arise a leader doing great works and miracles and bringing peace, much like Hitler and Nazi Germany. Many will be fooled. After the rise of the Antichrist then the Tribulation will actually start.
Not unplausible after reading about the run on the banks just last fall that nearly did collapse the world economy. In fact it apparently could happen quite easily at anytime the powers that be choose. And I have no doubt that there are very evil people who would do exactly that if it meant the downfall of the U.S. and a global grab at power.
>>>> conservative atheism is utterly powerless <<<
I didn’t know there was a “conservative atheism” philosophy but if so you must be right about it being powerless, because I’d never heard of it prior to your mention.
The problem I have with that is those who are saved during the Tribulation period. Do they not have the Holy Spirit? Not that I rule out a rapture pre or mid-Trib, just making a point.
< sarc>Apparently the Holy Spirit isn't as necessary as the church has historically held him to be.< /sarc>
Keep working on it. There're lots more problems with the model.
Give me a citation that establishes a yet-future, singular Antichrist.
He is the eighth and final world ruler to oppress Israel, heading the Revived Grecian Empire (see Rev. 17:10-11).
It is only a shadow of the two coming world kingdoms that are yet to oppress Israel: the Revised Roman Empire and Revived Grecian Empire.
Hint - Look at 1Jo. 2:18 and 4:3.
Comic book theology has no basis in Scripture.
I’ve been telling you people it’s Oprah.
This is false doctrine. The scripture does not speak anywhere of any specific pre-tribulation rapture. If you would devote yourself to laboring in the word instead of accepting the erroneous teachings of men, you will discover that we, the saints of God, holding fast the doctrine of Christ, are on the precipace of being “worn out”, martyred, killed for the witness of our Savior. The Holy Spirit is indeed not “he that letteth” that restrains the appearance of the man of sin. Study (King James Version) and build yourself up in the faith while there is time.
Amen Brother! Too much Darbyism.
The Bible teaches that everyone who receives Christ as Savior receives the Holy Spirit and I don't believe that will be any different for those who come to Christ during the Tribulation. However, the Holy Spirit will be here on a very limited, small scale, and will not be the restrainer of evil that He is at the present time.
The problem with American eschatology is that we assume a rapture out of prosperity, and that things won’t get bad before the Tribulation starts. I don’t think America will even be here as we know it. There will be a total world economic collapse, chaos, desperation, and death, out of which will arise a leader doing great works and miracles and bringing peace, much like Hitler and Nazi Germany. Many will be fooled. After the rise of the Antichrist then the Tribulation will actually start.
I agree with that. I've been telling people that there is no guarantee that we won't have to go through some very hard times before Christ gets us out of here. And I agree with your assessment of a world economic collapse from which a "savior" (not Barack Obama) arises to rescue the day. In fact, I believe that the current problems we are experiencing (globally) could very well be the beginning of that collapse. Have you heard the calls for a new worldwide currency to "fix" the monetary problems the world is having?
I've heard also that the Tribulation clock will begin ticking when the Antichrist signs the seven-year peace contract with Israel. I don't, however, think that the church will still be on earth when the Antichrist is revealed.
Not unplausible after reading about the run on the banks just last fall that nearly did collapse the world economy. In fact it apparently could happen quite easily at anytime the powers that be choose. And I have no doubt that there are very evil people who would do exactly that if it meant the downfall of the U.S. and a global grab at power.
Absolutely agree with you one thousand percent. There are only a very few more prophetic pieces on the chessboard that have to be put into place - it's only a matter of time.
Without going into a lot of detail, because I have a feeling it would be a waste of time, the doctrine of the Rapture is not false, it is in Scripture, and the doctrine of the Tribulation, the Antichrist, and all the rest is just as true and factual as the fact that you woke up and got out of bed this morning.
I don't know what your beliefs are, and I don't seek to disparage what you believe or don't believe, but the Scripture tells us there will be scoffers in the last days who deny Christ's coming.
You may want to read your post again in light of that.
Be carefull not to assume anything here. There IS to be a blessed second coming, Lord’s Day, day of the Lord, the Last Day. I hope in that day, but it is WHEN, not IF it happens; that is the important matter here, and unfortunately a great many will despair and fall away when they have erred as to WHEN our Lord returns.
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Beast: #2342 therion (thay-ree'-on)a dangerous animal (venomous, wild) beast According to Strong's the word does not mean "Anti-Christ".
According to Strong's this is the word used for Anti-Christ: [1 John 2:18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. #500. "antichristos" (an-tee'-khris-tos) an opponent of the Messiah, antichrist.
It sounds to me like John is speaking of "Many" anti-Christs....not just one and he identifies them as one who would deny that Jesus is the Christ: [1 John 2:22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son
You are certainly entitled to your beliefs and I wish you all the best.
Do you not see Satan as a singular entity, that GOD will cast into the Lake of Fire...Can Satan come as NERO or anyone else as far as decieving the world on what and who he is?
The “he” you refer to in the 2 Thessalonians quote is the Holy Spirit. Now, while it’s true that the church will be taken out of the way, by way of the Rapture, I don’t think it’s the church who is the true restrainer. The church simply has to be removed just like Lot had to be removed from Sodom and Gomorrah, in order for the judgement of God to be delivered. Until Lot was gone, the judgement could not proceed.
The church being removed is more a matter of the “righteousness of God” in the same manner as Abraham pleaded with the God of the Universe in that He should be righteous, if there was *just 10 righteous* there — that He should not deliver judgement.
As we see from God’s actions, if there was just *one righteous* He would not deliver the final judgement upon this city (however, there are other kinds of judgement that God does deliver, aside from the kind dispensed to Sodom and Gomorrah).
When the church is removed, then the final judgement of God, which the Bible says He has been “saving up from the beginning” — will be delivered upon the earth. And it won’t stop until God has exhausted every last bit of His judgement that He has been “holding back” from the beginning.
So, I see the Rapture as not in terms of holding back the antichrist, who actions were evident even in the time of the Apostles, but merely as the “righteous action” of God, in that He cannot deliver this final judgement upon the world until the righteous are removed (as in the conversation that Abraham had with God, the pre-incarnate Christ).
The “restrainer” is the Holy Spirit, which is different than the church, although, it’s true that the Holy Spirit resides within the believer — but He also is in all places, regardless. He will simply “not restrain” any longer (but *not* leave..., no...).
The Rapture has to do with the righteousness of God, while the Holy Spirit has to do with the restraining of the antichrist.
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