Posted on 02/21/2009 6:09:00 AM PST by kindred
I’m not mocking you. I’m not scoffing at you.
Ditto.
“Tell me, my friend, which is more appropriate to characterize another’s opinion, naive...”
You stopped a little to soon.
“Naive, arrogant, creators of “fraudulent lists”, easily duped, makers of “wacky lists purporting to know the end is near”, Prophets (Profits) Guild”
A personal word FROM God is not going to always be in the Bible. It’s apparent to me that you don’t believe in prophecy, perhaps you think it was over when Christ came. I don’t.
Oh, I believe in prophecy. When it's part of scripture.
I've never been given any, any reason to believe that the modern crop from the Muenster prophets to Heresy Barbie on a roll, are true prophets of any sort.
Two distinct peoples of God is an easy doctrine to hold. It’s written all over the NT. I mean, how could you possibly miss that?
You have to come to the text with that as a presupposition, to get that out of it.
Maybe I'm just reading the wrong parts. Galatians 3:29, maybe, about how we (the Christians) are heirs of Abraham. Or that other stuff about being in the commonwealth of Israel. That stuff. Guess I shouldn't be paying attention to that.
“You have to come to the text with that as a presupposition, to get that out of it.”
Just read Romans 9, 10 & 11.
It requires no presuppositions to see two distinct groups there - it just requires the ability to read.
You're not suggesting our friend is illiterate, are you?
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Blessings.
NAU 2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
“You’re not suggesting our friend is illiterate, are you?”
I think we would have had a difficult time making it to this point in the thread if that were true.
Don’t you?
;)
Just read Romans 9, 10 & 11.
Actually this supports my contention, that the dispensational axiom drives the interpretation.
You see 2 peoples. I see one olive tree, one root, from which Israel-according-to-the-flesh is cut off, and to which we are grafted in.
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
(Paul didn't mention the land. Curious, that.)
"Jewish DNA" will be of no value to them. Outside of Christ, outside of his church, they are lost. Anyone who gives them hope outside of that, will have to give account.5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5 and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
And may God bless you as well. Be careful what spirits you heed.
Alas, on that day, the doomsayers got their way -- and Israel lost a generation in pointless wilderness wandering. Just walking in circles, waiting to die.
The older saints among us remember when the global triumph of Soviet communism -- the "red beast" -- was a prophetic certainty. Then, when God discredited that enemy, none of the fortune-tellers had the integrity, the decency the faith, to fall on their faces before God and give thanks. Instead, they began to frantically scurry around, desperately seeking another antichrist candidate to quiver, cower, and grovel before. To paean, to sing the victory hymns of.
I have a dog in this fight. The "Jesus movement," with all of its faults, was a moment of revival, of divine opportunity, that was aborted by apocalyptic hysteria. The God whose power was not appreciated then became more discrete. A wasted generation followed, as the culture became ever-more enamored with death.
As in the days described in Psalm 95, the fortune-tellers and doomsayers are the enemies of humanity and of God's gracious plans for the world which He so loved. They are false witness to God, unpaid cheerleaders for the other team, faithless cowards who wish to infect all of God's people with their own fatalistic defeatism.
Those who acquire from their God faith, confidence, optimism, and power for living need to take the kid gloves off. The doomsayers are not faithful witnesses to the God we serve -- and need to be hooted off the stage at every opportunity. To tolerate their nonsense is to affront the God of the Bible. AND that, friends, is a TRULY dangerous thing to do.
Let me speak prophetically. I suspect God is getting tired of the nonsense being uttered in His name to undermine His people, and to bring ridicule on His name and honor. I suspect God will, and soon, put an end to their nonsense. I pray it may be by conversion -- but I pray first of all that these underminers of God's people will soon be out of business.
The future is too precious to discard. See my tagline.
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (vv. 9,10)During the futurist millennium, there is no rest, since there is still pain, suffering, death, unbelief, and satanically-inspired rebellion. In the futurist millennium, the world is in rebellion, and Jesus and His small camp of followers holed up in physical Jerusalem must be rescued by fire from heaven. This hardly fits with the picture of God’s rest in Hebrews 4.
So we are left with the fact that none of your verses quoted substantiates the 'year-day' theory ala Bullinger, et al.
You got it right before, when you said “rest and peace”. Problem is you are missing the reality of the eternal state for the realization of God’s true rest and peace.
This could not be more clear in all of the NT.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Eph. 2)One new man. One household of God. One dwelling place. One foundation. Salvation by race is nowhere taught in Scripture. In order to deny this truth, you must come at the text with the preconceived notions of Israel vs. the Church ala dispensationalism.
Not sure. You were the one suggesting our friend lacked the ability to read because he questioned your assertion about the interpretation of Romans 9-11.
I heed the Holy Spirit. I have good discernment and there are folks who claim to be prophetic that I avoid.
Hebrews 3b–11 The seventh day (v. 4). Psalm 95, quoted at 3:8–11 and explained in the subsequent verses, was sung on Shabbat in the Temple and remains part of the Shabbat liturgy in the synagogue. Therefore it is natural for the author to make his point about rest by introducing a quotation from another Shabbat-related passage (used today in the home service before the Friday night meal), Genesis 2:1–3, and speaking in v. 9 of a Shabbat-keeping (see vv. 9–10).
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Although the author may be thinking of the rest that comes to believers after they die (Rv 14:13), it seems more likely to me that he has in mind Jewish traditions that equate a day with 1000 years and is therefore speaking of the rest that comes in the Messianic Age or Millennium. For example, in Sanhedrin 97a Rav Kattina teaches that six millennia of ordinary history will be followed by a millennium of Shabbat; the passage draws on Psalm 90:4 and is quoted in 2 Ke 3:3–9N, and see Rv 20:2–7&N.
Stern, D. H. (1996, c1992). Jewish New Testament Commentary : A companion volume to the Jewish New Testament (electronic ed.) (Heb 4:3). Clarksville: Jewish New Testament Publications.
And I would argue, contra Stern, that the author of Hebrews is trying to get his audience of readers to think in new covenant terms, not in “traditional Jewish” terms. Traditional Jews denied the reality of the messianic age in the 1st century (and beyond) because they denied Jesus Christ is the Messiah and has provided all the redemption for the people of God promised in the Old Testament. We are told to avoid “Jewish fables” (Titus 1:14).
But we are told in Hebrews that Jesus appeared “at the end of the ages (aeon)” for the redemption of His people (Heb. 9:26). It is the messianic age, and the next is the eternal state following the resurrection of our bodies. All those who have a part in the first (Christ’s) resurrection will receive His rest. While the righteous are positionally seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), we will not experience the fullness of our redemption until the day of rest in the new heavens and new earth.
The “seventh day” (ἕβδομος ) in view in Hebrews 4:4, is not the Jewish sabbath (σάββατον ) of the old covenant, but it is the seventh day rest of God at creation. God’s creation resting was a picture of our eternal resting with Him in the new Eden, the new heavens and new earth. The writer contrasts “today”, the day of salvation, in chapter 3, with the eternal rest of God in chapter 4. “Today” is a day of opportunity, and day when salvation is still available to all the house of Israel and the rest of the nations. In the day of rest, the opportunity is gone. Only the righteous enter into His rest.
The futurist millennium is not a place of rest ala Hebrew 4. I’m afraid Mr. Stern’s presupposed messianism gets in the way of his interpretation of Hebrews. All we are left with, after reading his thoughts, is the lack of biblical support for the 'year-day' theory.
But we are told in Hebrews that Jesus appeared “at the end of the ages (aeon)” for the redemption of His people (Heb. 9:26). It is the messianic age, and the next is the eternal state following the resurrection of our bodies. All those who have a part in the first (Christ’s) resurrection will receive His rest. While the righteous are positionally seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), we will not experience the fullness of our redemption until the day of rest in the new heavens and new earth.
The “seventh day” (ἕβδομος ) in view in Hebrews 4:4, is not the Jewish sabbath (σάββατον ) of the old covenant, but it is the seventh day rest of God at creation. God’s creation resting was a picture of our eternal resting with Him in the new Eden, the new heavens and new earth. The writer contrasts “today”, the day of salvation, in chapter 3, with the eternal rest of God in chapter 4. “Today” is a day of opportunity, and day when salvation is still available to all the house of Israel and the rest of the nations. In the day of rest, the opportunity is gone. Only the righteous enter into His rest.
The futurist millennium is not a place of rest ala Hebrew 4. I’m afraid Mr. Stern’s presupposed messianism gets in the way of his interpretation of Hebrews. All we are left with, after reading his thoughts, is the lack of biblical support for the 'year-day' theory.
On one side we have thirty-five hundred years of deep study of YHvH's Word, The other view is clouded by nineteen hundred years of anti-semitism, Views which have from the beginning been molded by conforming to Verse 7 repeats the “Today” theme of 3:7, 13, 15. 8 Y’hoshua. Greek Iêsous, same as the Greek word for “Yeshua” (see Mt 1:1N); in fact, KJV renders the beginning of this verse, “If Jesus had given them rest.” By leading God’s people into the Promised Land, Y’hoshua bin-Nun (Joshua the son of Nun) prefigured the Messiah whose name he shares; and just as God’s people Israel rested in Eretz-Israel, so God’s Messianic Community rests in Yeshua. 9–10 A Shabbat-keeping, Greek sabbatismos, used only here in the New Testament. In the Septuagint, the related Greek word “sabbatizein” was coined to translate the Hebrew verb shabat when it means “to observe Shabbat.” The usual translation, “There remains a Sabbath rest,” minimizes the observance aspect and makes the role of God’s people entirely passive. Christians often assume that the New Testament does not require God’s people to observe Shabbat and go on to claim that Sunday has replaced Saturday as the Church’s day of worship (see 1C 16:2N). But this passage, and in particular v. 9, shows that Shabbat-observance is expected of believers. From Co 2:16–17, which says that Shabbat was a shadow of the things that were to come, but the substance comes from the Messiah, we learn that the essence of Shabbat-observance for believers is not following the detailed rules which halakhah sets forth concerning what may or may not be done on the seventh day of the week. Rather, as v. 10 explains, the Shabbat-keeping expected of God’s people consists in resting from one’s own works, as God did from his; it consists in trusting and being faithful to God (vv. 2–3). Although the specific “works” from which the readers of this letter were to rest were animal sacrifices (see 6:4–6), by implication all self-struggle, in which one relies on one’s own efforts instead of trusting God, is to be avoided; and in this the author is making the same point as Sha’ul does at Ro 3:19–4:25. Stern, D. H. (1996, c1992). Jewish New Testament Commentary : A companion volume to the Jewish New Testament (electronic ed.) (Heb 4:6-9). Clarksville: Jewish New Testament Publications.As I stand back to observe the two views of the Word,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
I am struck by the stark differences.
by His Chosen People unencumbered by allegiance to King, Emperor, Prince,
Pope or any other earthly power.
While I have my differences with some Rabbinical fables,
on the whole the Holy Word of G-d
shines through with the illumination of the Ru'ach HaKodesh.
The faithful remnant of YHvH's Chosen People remain.
obscured by sixteen hundred years of syncretism,
compounded by four hundred years of Jesuit counter-reformation
disinformation.
Pagan Emperors, mad Princes, debauched and profligate Popes
or lawlessness of iniquitous Cardinals
All this confusion, coming only from the source of all confusion. Messianic Jews (Hebrews) 4
6–8 The close reasoning and exact use of texts is typically rabbinic; compare Yeshua’s logic at Mt 22:31–32&N.
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