Posted on 06/02/2009 6:46:19 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
But if so, that very thing that is said should have a clear prooftext therein, and there is none. There are many scripture passages that praise the scripture, call it profitable for the formation of the clergy, and inspired. But when it comes to the resolution of disputes, the Church, not the scripture is the final arbiter (Mt 18), and it is the church that is called "pillar and ground of truth", whom Christ cleanses form every blemish, against whom Hell won't prevail.
I was simply stating your position and mine..., which also represents many from your position, along with many from my position...
As I said, we’re back where we started and nothing has changed... :-)
What changed is that I presented as best I could the Catholic teaching on a number of topics, and supported it with logic and scripture. I know that those seeds bring fruit.
And likewise for me...
Thus, those who see will choose, with the Holy Spirit guiding them into all truth...
John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Thank you.
“Which came first? The Church or the Bible?
better question...
Which came first, God’s divine revelation or the Church.
The answer is that God’s divine revelation started before
a word was written down at His command and continued for
thousands of years before there existed even the revelation of the establishment of a Church or an approved canon of scripture.
The Church at the time played the decisive role in separating the wheat from the chaff. The Scriptures are now complete. It is authoritative.
It contains the words that give eternal life, quickened by the Holy Spirit and available to all worldwide.
But (if we stipulate that it was seriously meant) I don't think it's "my belief" that to present as true something that you don't or shouldn't believe to be true is to characterize falsely.
Part of the problem would be that I could then say, "That's YOUR belief." That then leads into a conversation about reason and truth and so forth.
As I said, we’re back where we started and nothing has changed... :-)
I disagree. Two Christians with courtesy and frankness exchanged views in a manner laced with commitment to the Truth. I cannot believe that nothing is changed. We may not see a change, but there was change. Devils cursed and angels rejoiced.
Christ has paid in full for the sins of His sheep. That's not to say God does not chastise His sons in order to sanctify their lives to bring them into conformity with His righteousness.
RCs toil to accomplish that which has already been completed by Jesus Christ. Such futile effort makes for an anxious life.
$50 and a bottle of 16 year old Islay scotch. Payable June 1, 2014. Any takers?
Give an argument why the distinction between temporal and eternal punishment is wrong. You just ignored it and threw up some blather. You simply ignore the fact that, after a betrayal, a wound of mistrust remains behind. You are like a foolish spouse who tries to ignore the devastating impact of her husband’s betrayal, tries to act as if nothing ever happened. Ignoring reality never helps. Jesus is the ultimate realist. He cares about our full healing from the effects of our freely chosen sin. He knows what’s involved in preparing us to meet him in glory. Thank God that He’s in charge of it and not you. Thank God that he’s in charge of getting you ready to meet him.
Of course the removal of temporal punishment happens through the grace of Christ purchased by his death on the Cross in the Holy Spirit and through that grace alone. That’s Catholic teaching. Indulgences are based on the work of Christ on the Cross as manifested in the lives of Christians whose salvation he bought with his blood. That’s Catholic teaching.
This will be my last post on this subject. Those who have ears to hear will hear.
That "Catholic teaching," like so much of "Catholic teaching," is an example of the church in Rome saying one thing and doing another. “Catholic teaching” is needlessly punitive. If Christ has freed you from the penalty of sin by dying in your place, then you are forgiven and no temporal or eternal punishment is levied. The debt has been paid in full.
Thus, "Catholic teaching" is masochistic. There is no place in Christianity for indulgences or purgatory or filthy rags or cat-o-nine-tails or our own righteousness or the dozens of other self-agrandizing efforts Rome teaches its members to believe and perform.
You simply ignore the fact that, after a betrayal, a wound of mistrust remains behind. You are like a foolish spouse who tries to ignore the devastating impact of her husband’s betrayal, tries to act as if nothing ever happened.
lol. And that's why I thank God that Jesus Christ is the bridegroom to His true church and not the pretender in Rome.
The problem with so much of Rome's doctrine is that it is all built on a house of cards. When one falls, the entire edifice collapses into idolatry and meaningless, needless turmoil.
"...Purgatory is also an integral element of the Roman Catholic penitential system. According to the Church, every sin credits temporal punishment to the sinner's account. Acts of penance, suffering, and indulgences debit this account. Since sinners may not make full satisfaction for sin in this life, purgatory in the afterlife is necessary to balance the ledger..."
As James McCarthy explains further...
Biblical salvation has no need for a place such as purgatory where the soul supposedly becomes objectively beautiful to God. Rather, it is rooted in God's imputation of His own perfect righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). Biblical salvation brings a "righteousness that is by faith from first to last" (Romans 1:17 (NIV)). The sinner places his trust in Christ for justification. He walks by faith and through the enablement of the Spirit lives righteously. Nevertheless, he has no hope of ever being personally and objectively good enough in himself to stand in the presence of God. He trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Philippians 3:7-9). Rather than focusing on the good works and suffering of the individual, biblical salvation emphasizes the perfect work of Christ. He is sufficient to make sinners "stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy" (Jude 24). God no longer looks at the person as a defiled sinner, but sees him only in Christ (Ephesians 1:1-14), "holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:4). Finally, biblical salvation involves a new birth that results in a new creation (John 3:7; 2 Corinthians 2:17; Galatians 6:17; Ephesians 2:15). A born-again Christian wants to obey God. He is motivated by the love of Christ, not the fear of painful retribution (2 Corinthians 5:14; Romans 8:15)...""...Biblical salvation, on the other hand, has no need of a place such as purgatory. Biblical salvation does not rely on the works and sufferings of sinners, but solely upon Christ. The Lord Jesus "made purification of sins" (Hebrews 1:3) on the cross. His blood can cleanse the vilest sinner (Hebrews 9:14). There is no temporal punishment remaining for which the believer must atone; Jesus paid it all: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2).
Since it is Christ's righteousness and obedience that save us, and not our own, it is therefore Christ's suffering and good work on the cross that save us, and not our own.
This will be my last post on this subject.
Glad to hear it. You might spend the time you save reading the Bible and learning the truth.
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." -- Romans 6:22
Is Paul saying the believer never sins? Of course not. He reminds us continually that we sin every day because we are human. What Paul is affirming here is that the believer has been made "free" from the penalty of sin and death because Christ has overcome the world and atoned for our sins in full by God's merciful imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner through His Son's death on the cross.
"Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:18
"Catholic teaching" is masochism, vanity and lies. Flee from idolatry.
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