Catholic convert from Oregon coast becomes a priest (former Evangelical)

I am still a little fuzzy about the connection you make between the teaching on a doctrine and the interpretation of a passage. From my vantage point, doctrines are summations of many passages, as they bear upon a particular topic. Some contribute much, others little. Collectively, they form a message about a matter that we come to call a “doctrine” or “teaching”.

While all passages contribute to our understanding, not all passages actually impact a doctrine. We used to joke about the gravitas of I Chronicles 26:18, “At the Parbar on the west there were four at the highway and two at the Parbar.” My life verse (just kidding).

Whatever...passages can be considered individually, within the context of their location. Correct?

I have to go for the evening. Check in tomorrow.

The Church arrives at a doctrine by looking at what the scripture says and what we can glean from the consensus of the fathers. We do not necessarily expect a doctrine to be found in the scripture already formulated in one passage or a collection of passages. At some point, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding emerges that this, and not that, is what the Apostles taught; this is the authentic doctrine.

The hermeneutics are that words of Christ are given heavier weight than other content; that literal reading is preferred unless it can be easily impeached (”I am the door” doesn’t sound like literal meaning because there are several other metaphors in adjacent passages, that cannot all be literal); that innovative reading that is not detected historically is ipso facto suspect.

Both immediate context and passages from other parts of a book, or from different books can be relevant if they treat the related subject. For example, the promise to “the woman” that her seed will crush the Serpent in Genesis is relevant to Mariology which of course is concentrated around passages in Luke and John. So no, we should not limit ourselves to the immediate context.

Okay, understood. Back to your question...
“If we have no real choice in how we behave, why does the scripture teach us how to behave?”

There are two problems with this question. First, It may become a trick question, similar to “Can God make a rock bigger than He can pick up?” The problem is you have asked and answered it. It anticipates no other answer possible, beyond the obvious.

But, as we agreed before, the obvious answer is not always what the Scriptures provide.

Second, you are connecting admonitions about behavior to proof of “free will”. After all, if man is asked to do something, it must imply ability to do it. Otherwise God wouldn’t have asked. Thus, it rests upon a man’s will alone to obey or not. Correct? But, whether you are aware of this or not, such a perspective is Pelagianism.

Pelagius argued (beyond his error in rejecting original sin and other spurious concepts) against Augustine’s prayer that God “...ask what He would and grant what he asked”. Pelagius argued exactly what you are arguing. He agreed with Augustine that God could ask what ever He wanted, but that it would be absurd to have God ask something that we could not accomplish. You are doing the very same thing. You question, “If we have no real choice in how we behave, why does the scripture teach us how to behave?” is a Pelagian question.

I am aware that you are saying this is not Pelagian because grace is needed to accomplish obedience. But you then add that universally granted grace is already available to men sufficient to allow them to obey or reject. This is essentially what Pelagius argued.

Since all believers rejected Pelagius back when he was alive (350AD), it is curious that most Evangelicals and Catholics have now re-adopted his views. We reject that all things God commanded are possible, irrespective of the number of times He commands them. Why? Because, as the Law is a tutor to lead us to see the need of grace poured upon our failure, all obedience is managed and driven by God’s Spirit working in us for His good pleasure.

We are to try, exert, choose, act, think, behave, obey, comply, and all the other verbs you can think of. But, and this is a big “but”, God must be actively working in our wills and lives for us to even be wanting to do any of this. Our wills are in bondage to Him, they are not free. He opens eyes to see and energizes hearts to believe. The commands to obey are simply to demonstrate that what you thought was possible (obedience) is not.

If you wish to read many passages about God controlling the will of man, I will list those. But, I sense you are not persuaded by their content.

The bulk of your post is exploring the relationship between Pelagianism and Catholicism. I don't see how it contributes to the answer to the question on hand.

The commands to obey are simply to demonstrate that what you thought was possible (obedience) is not.

That answers the question, but how is it different from my guess at your answer in 347-349, namely that "the ethical teachings of the Scripture are there solely in order to prove to us our total depravity"?

Obviously, I think that answer is not satisfying, but before we discuss further I need to understand the answer in full.

When you claim that a “requirement” is given to compel a man obey on his own, you are making a Pelagian argument. Therein lies the connection.

“Requirements for holiness” are one thing. “Encouragements” for believers are another. Here hermeneutics comes into play. You say that a lot of weight is placed upon what Jesus said. We disagree.

Hermeneutically, you imply Jesus was here to teach “Christian living.” We fully, vigorously disagree. Here, again, our perspectives are miles apart. We understand that most of what Jesus was teaching during that “three year ministry” was to inform the Jews about the Law of Moses. The so-called Sermon on the Mount was a direct example of this claim.

In that Sermon, Jesus is saying, “You have heard (that the Law) said, ‘Thou shalt not kill’, but I say to you any man who calls his brother a ‘fool’ is worthy of Hell.” He was not teaching them “a better way”. He was driving them to say, “This crap cannot be done. It is impossible!” Much like the rich young ruler, when He told him to sell everything, give it all to the poor and follow Him. The man went away and Jesus says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter heaven. Impossible. The disciples said, “Well then, who can be saved?” “What is impossible with man is possible with God.” What they could not do for themselves, He could (and would) do.

This represents a great difference in viewpoint. What we notice is that most of you Catholic folks don’t do what it is you claim He is teaching. For example, you don’t tear out your eye or cut off your hands when they offend. You go to confession. Hmmmm. Even though these are direct orders. And, you don’t always forgive folks, even though you claim that you cannot be forgiven unless you forgive (Matt. 6:15).

We don’t even attempt to obey these “requirements” because we know that He was teaching them the tough strictures of the Law and demonstrating their depravity. And, on top of that, the audience is the Jews (read Matt. 15 and the Canaanite woman). We Gentiles are not grafted in until the blood is shed and the enmity (the Law) is abolished, Eph. 2.

In the NT epistles, you begin to see the “encouragements” for us Gentile Christians to follow. These are quite different from the “requirements for holiness” needed under the Law. Notice the grappling in Act 15. The encouragements stop some of the death we spread (due to our brokenness) and guide our thinking about what God may be accomplishing in us. We are to strive together with Him. BUT, even that effort, interest and willingness is a gift placed in our lives along with the ability to accomplish any of these good things. It is not self-induced.

Is this any “fuller”?

We are to strive together with Him

Without free will?

Well, never mind. You do not have an answer to either 357 or 365, and you've gotten repetitive evading the questions. However, this statement

you imply Jesus was here to teach “Christian living.” We fully, vigorously disagree.

... allows me to summarize our difference. That's the crux of it, isn't it?

In 203 I said

the Catholics have simple and plausible explanation for every scriptural prooftext the anti-Catholics throw at them, but the Protestants do not have an explanation for large swaths of the New Testament that Catholic theology follows without strain.

This exchange is a case in point. For some reason the Holy Scripture contains numerous repetitive exhortations to virtuous living. Jesus uttered them, St Paul repeated, them, St. Peter, St. James and St. John repeated them in their epistles. The very letter to Romans where St. Paul explains predestination and an absolute dependence of our virtue on the grace of God concludes with three chapters devoted to teaching Christian virtues. The Catholic read that as written and have no difficulty combining all that into a simple harmonious doctrinal whole: The Scripture teaches virtues because God wants us to be virtuous. No, it doesn't mean we don't need grace, it doesn't mean we are without blemish all the time, it means that we -- equipped with our free will -- can and must cooperate with grace. Those who do will be justified and God knows who they are. Those who don't, won't be justified. See Romans 2, Matthew 25, or any other scripture, in any order, from any context, any book. It is not complicated and is written for us to read, very plainly.

Contrast that with your hermeneutics -- the clever tool that allows you to dismiss anything you find inconvenient in the Scripture.

As Catholic, I'd rather stick with the Bible as written.

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