I find that appalling... and will pray for your salvation!
Nope, no graven images... /sarcasm
Posted on 07/06/2009 9:35:49 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
Ellis T. Rasmussen, professor emeritus of Religious Education at Brigham Young University.
The best support for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the testimony of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the Lord has exhorted us to seek that kind of witness not only of the entire Book of Mormon, but also of its parts. When Moroni, the last author in the Book of Mormon, gave the promise of spiritual confirmation, he spoke especially of particulars:
“When ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
“And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:4–5; italics added.)
The essence of the witness of the Holy Ghost is the witness of the book itself. Great concepts impressively written bear within them a witness of validity and divine origin more convincing than any clues that external evidences can provide, however helpful they may be. Such is the case with the Book of Mormon.
Attempts to prove or disprove the book’s authenticity by focusing on Joseph Smith’s description of how he obtained the gold plates, or on anthropological and archaeological evidence, though interesting, can be only marginally successful. Reconstructing history is difficult at best. The evidence is always incomplete—a clay inscription and a bit of pottery here, or a journal entry and a newspaper account there—so any picture that researchers develop will be, by nature, fragmentary. That picture will change as new information becomes available.
In contrast to the indecisive nature of external evidence, the Lord has provided a way to obtain decisive support for the book’s authenticity—“the Spirit of truth … will guide [us] into all truth.” (John 16:13.) This search is of necessity an individual matter. No matter how many millions have found the gospel and the scriptures true, and no matter how many people have joyfully lived the commandments, each new candidate must gain his own testimony. The Spirit’s witness comes only after individual effort and sincere seeking.
God the Father has set up a system of witnesses for the Book of Mormon. The book openly claims that it is the word of God. Joseph Smith and eleven other witnesses also testified of the book. The Bible itself serves as a witness of the Book of Mormon, and to this is added the witness of the Father himself through the Holy Ghost.
Furthermore, the individual parts of the ancient record—the doctrines, teachings, prophecies, and narratives—carry within them a spirit of authenticity. For me, this internal evidence has been, next to the witness of the Holy Spirit, the most convincing. From the many in the book, I’ve chosen seven key concepts that I feel are especially moving:
The intent of the Book of Mormon authors is to bring us to Christ. Nephi, the young prophetic author of the first books in the record, stated this clearly:
“The fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.” (1 Ne. 6:4; see also 2 Ne. 26:33.)
Moroni, the last person mentioned in the record, writes, “Again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ. … Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness.” (Moro. 10:30, 32.)
Without a single exception, every prophet between the two teaches us about Christ in some way, and nearly every page of the book contains some reference to him. The overriding intention of the book fits fully the intention of authentic scripture.
Nephi teaches that the condescension of God—the gift of the Savior’s ministry and the saving sacrifice of the Atonement—demonstrates God’s love. In one revelation, an angel asked Nephi, “Knowest thou the condescension of God?” (1 Ne. 11:16.) One meaning of the word—patronizing someone—has a negative connotation, but the other meaning is quite positive: “to waive dignity or superiority voluntarily and assume equality with an inferior.” (Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 1971 unabridged edition.)
To the angel’s question, Nephi replied that he knew that God loved his children but that he didn’t know the meaning of all things. He had just been shown in vision the town of Nazareth, and in it he had seen a beautiful virgin. After the angel’s question, Nephi saw her again with a baby in her arms.
The angel identified the baby as the Lamb of God, the Son of the Eternal Father, equating the gift of Jesus with the love of God. Then the angel declared, “Look and behold the condescension of God!” and Nephi saw the Redeemer of the world teaching the gospel and offering himself as a sacrifice. (See 1 Ne. 11:17–33.)
Eight chapters later, Nephi wrote again of Jesus’ sacrifice:
“The world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men. …
“[He] yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos.” (1 Ne. 19:9–10.)
This is a moving statement of divine condescension, of how God lovingly came to earth and accepted persecution, crucifixion, and suffering so great he bled from every pore. The concept of God’s condescension, unique to the Book of Mormon, is a powerful witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon identifies the roles of “the Holy Messiah.” The Old Testament prophets spoke often of a divinely appointed future king, of a Davidic branch with great power, and of a suffering servant who would save Israel. Despite the many Messianic prophecies, the use of different titles for the Messiah has caused confusion over who the Messiah was to be and what he was to do.
The Book of Mormon, however, is explicit about the name of the deliverer—Messiah and Christ are synonymous terms—and his work. Lehi, for example, taught his son Jacob that “redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah.” He went on to talk of the Messiah’s grace and truth, his sacrifice and mercy, and his intercession for all. (See 2 Ne. 2:6–10.)
In addition to this teaching, other Book of Mormon prophets discuss why Christ’s sacrifice had to be infinite in its outreach (see 2 Ne. 9:7; 2 Ne. 25:16); how man would always be subject to the devil—carnal, sensual, and devilish—without the Atonement (see 2 Ne. 9:8–9; Mosiah 16:3; Alma 42:9–10); and what relationship the Mosaic law has to the Atonement (see Mosiah 3:15).
These teachings clarify the role of the Messiah, and their insights bear within them the stamp of divine authenticity.
The Book of Mormon views the Bible as a great religious heritage from the Jews. The band of Lehi that fled Jerusalem took with them a copy of the Law and the Prophets of brass plates. So valuable was the record that they risked their lives to obtain it. Even 450 years after the time of Lehi, King Benjamin spoke of the importance of these plates:
“I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at the present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.” (Mosiah 1:3.)
Nephi also saw in vision the effect the Bible would have in the future. He saw that the Bible would “go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God” and that his peoples’ record and the Bible would verify each other and become established as one. (1 Ne. 13:25, 40–41.)
At a later time, Nephi prophesied that most would not acknowledge or thank the Jews for their record:
“What thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? … Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
“O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them.” (2 Ne. 29:4–5.)
These are but a few samples from the Book of Mormon on the worth of the Bible, a theme whose validity rings true and which can easily be tested.
The Book of Mormon prophesiesof its role as a companion witness with the Bible. When the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830, it boldly declared on its title page that its purpose was “the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.” Many felt then that the claim was presumptuous, yet the millions of readers who have since believed in Christ because of the Book of Mormon have proved that the purpose was valid.
The role of the Book of Mormon as a companion witness of Christ was explained to Nephi by an angel. Nephi learned that the scriptures of his descendants would “come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb. …
“And the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of [Nephi’s] seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one.” (1 Ne. 13:35, 41.)
The Book of Mormon performs a complementary role with the Bible, declaring that the “whole meaning of the law of Moses” is to point our souls to Christ, our divine Redeemer. (See Alma 34:13–14.)
In our day, when billions of people do not know the gospel of the Lamb of God, and when many doubt the Bible and the divinity of Jesus, a second witness of the Savior is sorely needed so mankind can know the truth and obtain the blessings of the gospel. This witness is provided by the Book of Mormon and serves as one more mark of its truth and authenticity.
The Book of Mormon is full of valuable warnings and admonitions about the last days. Oftentimes the warnings are detailed and clearer than those in the Bible. One example is a warning in 2 Nephi 27, [2 Ne. 27] the Book of Mormon rendering of Isaiah 29. [Isa. 29] Many readers of Isaiah 29 have difficulty understanding who is being warned and what the warning is. Nephi’s account, however, is a clear warning to the people who fight against Zion—the people of the Lord in the last days. It follows a chiastic realignment of phrasing:
a “In the last days … all the nations of the Gentiles and also the Jews … will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations.
b “They shall be visited of the Lord of Hosts” with great catastrophes.
c “All nations that fight against Zion … shall be as a dream of a night vision; … even as unto a hungry man which dreameth, and behold he eateth but he awaketh and his soul is empty.
c1 “Or like unto a thirsty man which dreameth, and behold he drinketh but he awaketh and behold he is faint … ; yea, even so shall … the nations be that fight against Mount Zion.
b1 “All ye that doeth iniquity, stay yourselves and wonder, for ye shall cry out, and cry [apparently because of the catastrophes].
a1 “Ye shall be drunken but not with wine, ye shall stagger but not with strong drink.” (2 Ne. 27:1–4.)
Through study and prayer, a critical reader may test such statements of warning and admonition. In this area of scripture, too, the Book of Mormon bears witness that it is valid, valuable, realistic, and authentic.
The authors of the Book of Mormon are deeply concerned with the welfare of individual souls. The word soul in the Book of Mormon most frequently denotes the eternal self. Worship centers in the soul, and the devil seeks to cheat the souls of men. If one yields to the devil but later repents, it is the soul that is racked with torment until repentance takes place. When communication comes from heaven, it pierces the very souls of men and women.
In his farewell address, Nephi urges his people to adopt a way of life that will be good for the welfare of their souls: “I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.” (2 Ne. 32:9; italics added.)
These seven points are only a brief sampling of the internal evidences that the Book of Mormon is true and authentic scripture. But the real burden of proof of its authenticity lies with each reader. In each instance of doctrine, in each narrative passage, in each great character of the Book of Mormon, the Lord has challenged us to ask the Father in the name of Christ whether these things are true, and he will manifest the truth unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And if the issue were still an open question to be decided, what does that say about the care, guidance and nurturing Jesus promised to give His Church in Matthew 28? It would be more probably correct to suppose, if His Church had lapsed into such egregious errors as you seem to allege almost from the get-go, that the whole idea of Christianity is a fraud, than to suppose that a purportedly almighty, omniscient and omnipresent God could suffer His children to labor in darkness for 1500 years until the canon could be made “right.”
Indeed, the Mormons themselves make much of such a supposed early apostasy of the Church, and use that very supposition to lay a claim to legitimacy for their highly irregular beliefs. You are closed to a Mormon mentality than you apparently know.
Oops! “closed” = “closer”
Hail Mary? Are you that blind?
Hopefully if you educated yourself and looked beyond your own bias you may learn the truth one day.
I say the same in return, but wish you would believe the Scriptures not your church's interpretational dogma. I know it is hard to learn what those priests have indoctrinated you to believe. Believe your eyes, and the Holy Spirit, not me.
I will add Paul's words. It's kinda funny that he berates the Roman church for it's desire to be under the Law.. and not the Spirit. Things haven't changed much, have they?
Romans 5 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
No I am not the blind one here and for your information I spent a few years in other Christian churches and was not impressed with a lot of the things I saw so I went back to the one true church. May you find the light someday too.
Prove your own faith. I need not justify it to you. My first recognized co-religionist is Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, a Jew. Your attempt to discredit the Holy Spirit is duly noted, along with your desire to elevate an earthly organization.
You can believe what you wish. I trust in the God of Abraham. I have faith in the shed Blood of Jesus. It shields me from the poisonous insults of His enemies, and promises me etenal life with Him.
Your mileage may vary. I have no problem with Christians who worship in your Roman Church. I just want them to do it with their eyes wide open... and know they are accepting of idols and all!
Potato, potahto, whatever... and idol is a graven image!
John 3: 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." - NIV
.. with love, Jesus
That’s what they’d like you to think.
Whatever floats your boat. Being on topic certainly doesn’t
Mary was an anointed young girl who found favor with God, and gave birth to our Savior. She went on to have other children with her husband, Joseph, thus making her a HUMAN BEING and not divine. I’m not sure how Catholics come up with the idea that she is part of the Godhead / Trinity, but she was not and is not. She was a human being who gave birth to our Lord — thus making Him able to be fully God and fully man simultaneously.
The Book of Mormon is a book written by a man who believed he was a Prophet, when in fact, he was not. God’s Word was given complete and in tact, with warnings (end of Revelation) against adding to, or taking away, from anything written before or after. Despite its history passed down through the ages, its authenticity and integrity remains faithful and stable. Praise God for a Creator who speaks clearly so we can understand Him, and so we can walk with Him and worship Him alone.
So your argument to me is about what Mormons do? Lame is a kind word for that attempt! Study your own church history, and find your own truth.
It seems you have been well indoctrinated. In Ireland, I guess you could start shooting at me, since I refuse to bow to Rome.
Judaism has a longer history than your group. Guess who wins in the end? If anybody has a claim to being God's chosen, they are the ones. I am a Jew, in God's eyes.
john 6: 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." -NIV
... with love, Jesus!
Let's try again, shall we? You say there are no missing books from your Bible. I say that 7 full books and parts of two others are missing. My version preceded yours. This is a historical fact. How did people arrive on-scene in the 1500s with the authority to change what was already settled? How did they know they had that authority? Why does this 1500 year chasm of apparent darkness, as you clearly allege, not lead to seeming ineptitude on the part of Jesus Christ Himself, when He promised to be with and guide His Church all days till the end in Matthew 28, and clearly "failed" in the delivery on that promise?
I find that appalling... and will pray for your salvation!
Nope, no graven images... /sarcasm
Matthew 6: 19”Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22”The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24”No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
Have a good life. I have some dust to shake from my feet!
I, in turn, have no idea how people like you can allege, with an apparent, sincerely-held belief, that we Catholics believe such nonsense. You have been on this forum for nearly 2 years. If you had been paying even the slightest bit of attention, you would certainly know that your assertion, quoted above, is utterly false and slanderous. There are enough genuine differences of belief between us that you don't need to make-up others or perpetuate the clearly erroneous accusations of other ignorant people.
As for Mary's having other children or not, I would simply point out, at this late hour, that the issue is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you smugly suppose. There is room for honest people to have honestly varying opinions here, but I suspect that, just as you are so ignorant of Church teaching that you suppose we Catholics "worship" Mary as part of the "Godhead," it is equally likely that you haven't ever even bothered to barely look into Catholicism's reasons for asserting Mary's perpetual virginity, too. As you speak from ignorance on her status quite outside of the Godhead, you speak from ignorance while denying her virginity after Christ's birth. You do her and her Son insult, on at least two levels.
I’ll put that down as a series of “I don’t know” answers to my questions, then. Thank you, and you have a blessed and pleasant life, too. And thanks for forcing a steering away from the actual topic of this thread, which had some potential to be civil and interesting.
So, I haven't been civil? You allege all sorts of facts and attribute them to me, then want me to defend them. Hmmmmm... that is interesting.
You may pontificate all you wish, but it will not change the role of the Holy Spirit! You may call me all sorts of names, and make all sort of allegations of ignorance, but it won't erase my Christianity. Jesus assures us of eternal life, not the Catholic hierarchy.
I am not ignorant of the Roman Catholic Church and it's liturgy, history, and false claims of exclusivity. Nor, have I said anything not backed up by Scripture. My "hijack" was a simple connection of two churches, who claimthat exclusivity!
I then posted a simple response to a rejection of my thesis. I never posted anything to you, nor invited you into the discussion. You interjected your suppositions, and spurious claims and tried to make them mine, in response to another poster. Why should I respond to that drivel?
I can only assume you must feel yourself called to be an "answer guy", called to beat down the stupid Protestant. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't play with children or fools, and I am anything but stupid! Good night.
BTW, both of your organizations have some mighty nice real estate. I guess the poor are no more...
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Jesus admonition is in the New Testament, FRiend. He tells us that WE are His temple... not a gilded stone building!
John 5: 33They said to him, "John's disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking."
34Jesus answered, "Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? 35But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast."
36He told them this parable: "No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old one. If he does, he will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. 37And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. 38No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' "
You are abysmally ignorant of Catholic teaching, as well as its history and liturgy. Until you provide evidence to the contrary with coherent, fact-based argumentation, I have no choice but to believe I am correct in my observation of you ignorance of all things Catholic.
Answer my questions about the canon of Scripture, or don't. It matters not a whit to me personally. But, for the umpteenth time, when you assert that your Bible is not missing any books, and I challenge you to cite your bona-fides for making that assertion in the face of simple history (never mind the working of the Holy Spirit!), it is glaringly apparent that you have no real understanding of the issues upon which to mount a defense of your original assertion that your Bible is complete.
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