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To: Kolokotronis
"but deliver us from the Evil One".

Good point K. Good catechesis should mention that fact.

I understand that the translation can go both ways: "evil" and "Evil One".....?

7 posted on 07/29/2009 4:37:46 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII; Kolokotronis
πονηρος (poneros) can be used as both adjective "evil" and noun "evil one", often in the same book. For example, in Matthew 12:35 we read

A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. ο αγαθος ανθρωπος εκ του αγαθου θησαυρου εκβαλλει αγαθα και ο πονηρος ανθρωπος εκ του πονηρου θησαυρου εκβαλλει πονηρα

Here the first two occurences are adjectives and the last one is a noun. In the next chapter (Mt 13:19) we have a noun:

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, there cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart: this is he that received the seed by the way side. παντος ακουοντος τον λογον της βασιλειας και μη συνιεντος ερχεται ο πονηρος και αρπαζει το εσπαρμενον εν τη καρδια αυτου ουτος εστιν ο παρα την οδον σπαρεις

This is characteristic of both Greek and Latin where nouns and adjectives have the same grammatical form; we can only tell what is an adjective by looking at a noun following it.

The usage in "Our Father" is similar to Mt 13:19 the word is not followed by another noun:

deliver us from evil [?] ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου

Another peculiar to the Greek thing is that the definite article is not used in the same way as in English. In Mt 12:35 we see definite articles (inflected in Greek) "ο πονηρος ανθρωπος" and "εκ του πονηρου θησαυρου" translated with indefinite articles in Douay. In Latin, there are no articles at all.

Now let's talk Latin. Did "malus" in "libera nos a malo" mean abstract evil or "evil man"? In legal Latin a similar word surely takes on an abstract meaning with "malum in se". Note that when St. Jerome had to translate "malus" used clearly as a personified evil, he chose a different word (Mt 13:38):

And the cockle, are the children of the wicked one. τα δε ζιζανια εισιν οι υιοι του πονηρου Zizania autem, filii sunt nequam

Whatever St. Jerome meant to convey is severely distorted in English, where "from evil" at least in general connotes "from abstract evil". That is because in English we never separate the adjective from the noun it modifies unless we add "the": we cannot say "deliver us from duplicitous" and end a sentence with it. We either say "deliver us from the duplicitous one", or "from duplicitousness", or finally, "from the duplicitous [people]"

9 posted on 07/29/2009 10:21:51 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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