Posted on 09/10/2009 1:30:04 PM PDT by Colofornian
I also don't go along with the handling of the printed word as though the paper and ink were magic ~ clue, they are not magic.
The words have meaning as a construct in the mind. Unless you put them in there they do nothing.
The point I made, and I think it is still valid, is that Judaism was not always of the current opinion. Jews once used statues, pictures and even depictions of the human form for religious purposes ~ just like Christians, and the pagans before them. They evolved.
BTW, notice my explanations ~ I sensed that you were having some problems with ideomatic expressions ~ so what is it ~ you deal in 4, maybe 5 languages? I will be more patient.
Scattered fights in the 1830s and 1840s over the use of the cross highlight the beginnings of the symbol's Protestant career in America. Before then, the nation's Protestant churches had rarely encountered any Catholic competition, and their misgivings over the use of Catholic art followed basic Reformation patterns. These had emerged in the wake of Martin Luther's famed attacks on Catholic corruption in 1517. Despite the variety of new reformers and reformed churches that thereafter identified themselves as "Protestant," almost all affirmed Luther's main message--that God and his Scripture, not the church and its sacraments, were the sources of salvation and grace. Thus Protestant reformers took a different view of the symbolic materials used to administer and sanctify church sacraments, as these items could imply a need for priestly intercession or interfere with an individual's focus on scripture. Some reformers, Luther included, retained the use of certain "Catholic" symbols, including altars, crucifixes, and crosses, in the belief that traditional art was an aid to faith. But these reformers guarded against attributing any spiritual power to such implements. This perspective found support in the reformed churches of Germany and England. In contrast, other European countries became less hospitable to religious art. Protestants in Scotland, the Netherlands, and areas of England looked to Switzerland, where influential theologians like John Calvin denied the propriety of Catholic symbolism in church worship altogether. These reformers argued that erecting crosses, statues, and the like violated the Second Commandment prohibiting false idols, and they emphasized the sufficiency of scripture to attend to believers' needs. So in varying degrees, early Protestants complicated the use of church symbols. (7)
I don't think the First Borners and the Quakers are a fair sample of Christian belief, or even of Protestant belief.
The "No religious test" clause in the Constitution is aimed directly at the Quakers and their quaint methods for dealing with non-Quakers in public life, or even in public.
An article on the subject; they are some solid in-context Mishna sections.
Yup, it's like an Orthodox Cross, but with an extra patibulum at the top.
This has to do with a couple of things ~ the fur trade and earlier trappers from Russia who came West, and ~ the Alaska colony and earlier trappers from Russia who came East to what is now Fort Ross, discovered Finley, Ramsey and other American fur traders (who took Russian furs South to the Spanish in exchange for vegetables which they took North to be transhipped to Alaska).
The Russians quickly discovered where the Americans had lived and trapped and went there.
So, on the American frontier of the 1820s to the 1840s there were all sorts of crosses, even Russian crosses, in graveyards across the Lower Midwest, and they're still there. They are so unremarkable I think I may well be the first person to ever note their existence.
I'm just guessing that those fine gentlemen may not agree with the lessons of the Talmud (and somehow I just bet those judges knew all about the Talmud).
Crickets.....
Gee, number one, I didn't see that in Nana's post...of course, I don't try to read her mind.
Number two, when I was mormon, Joseph Smith was the center of the mormon religion...and I doubt very much a visit to a testimony meeting today would illustrate that has changed.
Quoting from memory, "I KNOW that the church is twooo and I KNOW that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God....crosses were completely forbidden....end memory clip. During sacrament prayers and at the end of prayers, you would hear "in the name of Jesus Christ amen"...and that was about all you would hear about Christ. Most hymns were about Smith, the church, persecution, etc. etc.
it neglects the act in the Garden of Gethsemane (where he took upon himself our sins)
...and the mormon religion sees Gethsemane as the "Atonement" rather than the crucifixion where he DIED for our sins.
Maybe instead of the CTR ring, mormons could start making and wearing "garden" jewelry....gold-plated shovel anyone?
>>”My point is the cross with Jesus on it, or the various saint statutes, look a lot like “graven” images to me.”
That is my opinion, also. As to muawiyah, I often find him to be a mystery, and his motives obscure.
DG
I dony know who you are and I dont like sneaky secret messages and I hacve no idea why it would have to be secret...
so I will answer the FReepmail that you sent me, unsolicited I might add...here in the sunshine...
Sunlight seems to go with crosses...
You wrote
________________________________________________
Re: Sunstone speaker attempts to explain LDS ‘aversion’ to cross
From Some hope remaining. | 09/10/2009 5:38:41 PM PDT read
“There is so little in that lyin’ mess that could not be commented on...”
If you say so...
Actual history seems to support at least part of the article, however — the cross was very controversial in Protestantism in the 1800s.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb050/is_4_70/ai_n28885951/
________________________________________________
Yes I say so, because it is true...
If mormons dont like the Christian cross, then they dont like the Cgristian cross...
Their rejection of the cross of Jesus cxhrist is important to God, but it does not effect my savation or my relationship with Jesus...
There are areas of mormonism that are anathema to me, and I feel feel to say so...
Like the rejection of the cross...aven though Jesus died on the cross to save us...
Whewre would we be if Jesus had refused to suffer and die on the cross ???
But He didnt refuse...
Before He died he told us to re,member His death on the cross until he comes again...
He has not come back yet and so we Christians remember Him and the cross...
Chrsietians, both Catholics and Protestants have placed crosses on their churches for 2,000 years....
during and after the Reformation Protestants didnt crease too honor Jesus by building Lutheran and Anglican Churches and Huguenot Temples withour crosses...
They kept plcing the cross they loved on and inside each new building, and in their stained glass windows...the Huguenots adopted the Cross of Languedoc as their emblem...mentioning the cross in their services and songs...
This article is nonsense, and sneaking around corners and sending FReepers you dont know secret messages is not going to change that ...
Please do not send me any more unsolicited FReepmails...
If you think you have something to say, please say it here in the open...
Tennessee Nana
To whom the preaching the cross is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18)
I am a Christian, but I wore a small gold Star of David necklace in college. I believe that I am a “child of Abraham” by faith in the Messiah, Jesus Chriat. I still have it, too.
My objection to the crucifix was because it portrayed Jesus as still on the cross and not resurrected.
1 Corinthians 15:12-20 (King James Version)
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
SOMEwhere along the way, the PROTESTANTS managed, someHOW, to put a LOT of CROSSES in their churches without a lot of fanfare.
How DARE you point out these FACTS!
We want to forget them and just have a group hug!
—MormonDude(I just LOVE Christians!)
AMEN!
I do so wish that SO many Christians would actually find that out someday!
The motives? Probably age ~ the older you get the less meaning you draw from conflict.
No Orthodox church has any statues, much less life-size ones, specifically to avoid such reactions. We go for the two-dimensional icons, filled with theological content and painted in such a manner as NOT to be earthly-realistic, but to evoke concepts of a divine realm and to concentrate the mind in prayer. Such statues as you allude to would be an obstacle to prayer for many.
LOVE your tag line!!!! :)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.