Posted on 09/20/2009 2:46:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
SNIP
Sharing testimonies is an important part of the Latter-day Saint experience. We bear testimonies in many settings — in the home with family and among friends and associates or in missionary experiences. In Church, one Sunday is set aside every month for the bearing of testimonies during sacrament meetings.
SNIP
In his address at the October 2004 general conference, Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve...said that his experience throughout the Church leads him to worry that too many members' testimonies linger on "I am thankful," and "I love," and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, "I know." As a result, he noted, meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.
He...counseled, "We need to replace stories, travelogues and lectures with pure testimonies. Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt, lifting the spirits and edifying our people."
SNIP
As we listen to general conference this October, we will hear many bear pure testimony. Numerous times over the years, we have heard President Thomas S. Monson, first as an apostle and now as president of the Church, bear such testimony. May we, as Primary children sing, be inclined to "follow the prophet" in our endeavor to nurture, strengthen and share our testimonies that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, that Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was the prophet who was raised up to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel...
(Excerpt) Read more at ldschurchnews.com ...
DU: ...I don't think so...
Me: what do you mean "I don't think so"? What? You don't read your own Doctrine & Covenants?
You: Been there, read it, received here or in the spirit world? I'm sure I can't answer, it's not my place to judge men, but Jesus'. No one here to my knowledge has denied the Holy Spirit, see my last sentence, not judging.
Go ahead and read the entire Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith book for context, if you want. Smith regularly damned other religionists to hell and even went so far to say "...they cannot escape the damnation of hell.": "But say you, What will become of the world, or the various professors of religion who do not believe in revelation & the oracles of God as continued to His Church in all ages of the world, when He has a people on earth? I tell you, in the name of Jesus Christ, they will be damned; and when you get into the eternal world, you will find it will be so, they cannot escape the damnation of hell." (p. 272)
"Compare this principle once with Christendom at the present day, and where are they, with all their boasted religion, piety, and sacredness while at the same time they are crying out against prophets, apostles, angels, revelations, prophesying and visions, etc. Why, they are just ripening for the damnation of hell. They will be damned, for they reject the most glorious principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Yes, I say, such will be damned, with all their professed godliness." (pp. 298-299)
Irony of ironies -- not long before Smith was dismissing the supposed "lack of charity" among other sects : "He then referred to the [lack of] charity of the sects, in denouncing all who disagree with them in opinion..." (p. 192)
But, of course, I guess we have to bow to Smith's elitism & those who follow in his footsteps: "I testify that no man has power to reveal it but myself--things in heaven, in earth, and hell; and all shut your mouths for the future." (p. 368)
How appropriate this thread on testifying comes full circle to Smith's testimony that ONLY he has the power to reveal things in heaven, earth & hell...and the rest of the earth just has to "shut your mouths for the future."
(Another irony...so much for the Lds chastisement of Christians about future "revelation" possibilities -- Mormons scolding Christians for dismissing possible future revelations from God...here Smith dismisses the possibility that God couldn't speak through one of us in prophesying in the Spirit...he simply scolds others to shut their mouths for the future).
(meant to ping you both to 428)
Asked and answered earlier on this thread... Remember those little merry go rounds I was talking about, this is one.. [DU]
I've read a book by Lds "prophet" David O. McKay. I think I found out one of Smith's supposed objections to Presbyterianism: ...let us see how the events of the past confirm this claim of Joseph Smith to inspiration. From a scholastic standpoint, he was unlearned and wholly untrained in the ministry as accepted by the world; yet something made him bold in his declarations against false doctrine and in his advocacy of that which is true. Take, for example, his opposition to the doctrine of predestination." (Treasures of Life, Deseret Book Co., 1970, p. 320)
(Of course, McKay then went on to talk about Presbyterians as his example!)
So, McKay says Smith opposed predestination -- and somehow, this 15 year old could condemn every Presbyterian creed! (How funny)
What's doubly funny? Months before he died, Smith said: "Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council." (History of the Church: 6:364-65)
So, pre-world ordination for Smith & his cronies but none for the Presbyterians? (Can you say, "Inconsistent Joe?")
, and what better way to come closer to him than by joining him in the saving work... I guess that’s why he commanded us to do so.
- - - - - - - -
WOW. Finally an admittance that they consider themselves to be Saviors, just like their prophets taught.
I suppose you see nothing at all wrong with comparing your proxy work to that of the Savior? ALLLrighty then!
When I was a kid and my dad was mowing with a lawn mower he would give me these grass shears to work on the grass with him. I didn’t make much of a dent, but I learned more about what he was dong by trying.
- - - - - - - -
Wow. Just Wow. And that doesn’t register as blasphemy to the LDS? Trying to be like Jesus by helping in the salvation process yourself?!? Just Wow.
Reminds me of the guy who stands outside the SLC temple in his temple clothing telling people that they should try to be “as good as or better than Jesus”.
Alright, DU, I know this kind of statement just rolls off the tip of a typical Mormon, but you do comprehend how this sounds to a non-Mormon? Let's unpack this:
"God...allowed me to come down to earth" [do you realize, DU, that to a non-Mormon unfamiliar with Mormonism this sounds like you're comparing yourself to the incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ, coming down to earth to incarnate a body?]
You might answer, "So? Of course. He was my elder bro in the pre-exis...we hung out. He's a son of God from wayyy back; so am I. He came down & inhabited a body & so did I. What of it?"
Next phrase: ...become more like him.
Well, this sounds harmless enough. (I mean what Christian is anti-godliness or anti-Christlikeness?) I'll let you answer what you meant by this -- but usually Lds when they say something to this effect, actually mean becoming like Christ to the point of becoming a future god, or New Age-like, realize the embryo-god within them.
And when you catch the fuller drift of Joseph Smith statements (D&C 93 & otherwise), Smith was obsessed with making men eternity-to-eternity on par with God!
I mean not only does Smith claim contemporary people were present in in a "pre-existence" and saw Heavenly Father pick Jesus over Satan as the world's savior, but even before that Smith places the spirit-intelligences of men as equal with Heavenly Father & millions of other gods! Here's what I mean:
"The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." [Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church, p. 210]
What utter blasphemy! The very Personal Name of the Being who appeared to Moses in Exodus 3:14 identified His Name as I AM -- meaning the Self-Existent One. Yet in one fell swoop, Smith puts everybody on the same "self-existent with God" level from eternity past!
"At the first organization in heaven we were all present, and saw the Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.181)
Shall we take a poll? Who remembers sustaining Jesus as Savior pre-birth?
I guess I was off planet that day...
BTW If this is true, why did I chose this era to enter this dispensation...
I kinda liked the old west...
If I can sanction god choosing Jesus to be the savior (WOW!) certainly I had some pull...
I don't think so, but lets say it is, then you add the massive missionary work you just complained about, and the genealogy and temple work to see to it that every man woman and child (not just that live now, but that ever lived) get the opportunity to accept or reject the ordinances needed to save them... [DU]
Are you serious? You think pre-Gutenberg printed records will drop out of the sky, or be dug up etched in golden plates in Hill Cumorahs all over the world? You seriously think that the vast records of people in the Dark Ages and before the Dark Ages, down to their very birth name (required for Lds baptisms), will be found? (If not, then drop the silly idealism of whoever has ever lived...It's a false ideal part of a false hope of a false gospel. Lds leaders make this magnanimous appeal to "fairness" that ALL will have the opportunity to receive the gospel in the after-life, except they never talk about the "fine print" of this legal obligation...* "uh, it's kind of dependent upon us finding all their birth records & such...you know B.C...early A.D....dark ages...unliterate people...etc. etc. etc.")
Hey ya gotta admit we aren't just saying "everyone else can go to Hell", we are doing something about it, and trying to save as many as will let us. BTW before someone gets all hung up on e proxy work done in the temple, every Christan accepts the principle of proxy work for the atonement was a proxy work by Jesus, and what better way to come closer to him than by joining him in the saving work... I guess that's why he commanded us to do so. [DU]
Lds believe that "...hell...is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel & have the opportunity to repent & accept ordinances for them that are performed." (True to the Faith, 2004, official Lds publication, p. 81)
Now what's wrong with this statement?
(1) It negates Hebrews 9:27 "For it is appointed for man to die once, and then the judgement"
(2) It creates a false sense of security for earthly man: "Oh, I can repent AFTER I die"
(3) In light of what I said above -- the vast majority of Dark Ages & before will never have their records found, how can the Lds church turn around and say this is MANDATED for EVERY spirit before they can be judged? Joseph Smith taught that "ALL those who have not had an opportunity of hearing the Gospel, and being administered unto by an inspired man in the flesh, MUST have it hereafter, BEFORE they can be finally judged. (Lds Presidents book on Smith, p. 471)
(4) Lds assume not only can they arrange eternal relationships with God and Jesus Christ post-death, but they can do marital match-making for the deceased. (Someone cue the Halloween Morg music): "In the temple, we can perform ALL the ordinances necessary for the exaltation of those who have died. This includes temple marriage." (Official Lds teaching pub -- Gospel Principles, p. 248) [Yeah, all: Think of The Addams family performing ghoulish eternal wedding rituals for the dead]
(5) It treats mere men as "saviors" -- what Reaganaut just noted in what you said: WOW. Finally an admittance that they consider themselves to be Saviors, just like their prophets taught.
Citations from former lds "prophets" that flesh out what DU & Reaganaut's notation is talking about : ...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
"... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
"We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
Who said salvation could be assured? [DU]
Who said? Joseph said:
But will all this purchase an assurance for me, or waft me to the regions of eternal day with my garments spotless, pure and white? Or, must I not rather obtain for myself, by my own faith and diligence in keeping the commandments of the Lord, an assurance of salvation for myself? Have I not an equal privilege with the ancient saints? (Joseph Smith 1833 letter to his uncle, Silas Smith, as cited in Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, pp. 129-130)
Much, much, much more importantly -- John the Revelator said you can be so assured...see bold-faced below in noting that eternal life is present tense (vv. 10, 12) -- note especially v. 13 about assurance:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:7-13)
Jesus' Way of assurance is much better than Smith's hope of assurance based primarily on his ability to keep commandments. (How reassuring is that?)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.