Posted on 10/03/2009 7:01:58 AM PDT by DouglasKC
For some reason my paragraphs didn’t take. Sorry, I prefer not to linger on this subject much longer, too many painful memories.
The title is "The Feast of Tabernacles: Jesus Christ Reigns Over All the Earth".
Lev 23:34 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the LORD.
It's too bad that you associate bad people with such a wonderful and biblical event, one of the feasts of the Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps you need to learn to separate the two.
This is the first time I have took time to breach the subject of what happened to WCG... I read that the majority of splinter groups went to United Church of God of which this article originates. I have a question for you, after the split of WCG where did the "Armstrongism" members navigate to? Are they still there, and under what name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrongism
It is just too much information to follow all the splits and such... this chart below follows the splits up to 1997 and I think even they gave up.
http://www.wcg.org/lit/aboutus/splits.htm
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QUOTE "It's too bad that you associate bad people with such a wonderful and biblical event, one of the feasts of the Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps you need to learn to separate the two." UNQUOTE
Let me tell ya, I will separate on my own terms and not you or anyone will ever ever ever treat me and my family like crap again. Sitting my mom down surrounding her with men that verbally humiliate her for hours making her cry don't cut it anymore. I can you she raised 3 kids on her own and did a dandy job of it. How dare a lady actually take her kids to the beach during a Feast of Tabernacle instead of making them sit for HOURS and HOURS listening to drones that are by all accounts remembered as cultist.
I will not be silenced on this subject, don't even go down that road. It was like living with a communist group not knowing who would snitch on you for anything they perceived as wrong.
Lets dig a little deeper, my mom and grandmother were disavowed by the church because after mom came home to grandmother, mom talked Grandmother into getting medical attention at B'ham Alabama (the best in nation at the time). All our former friends shunned us and they shunned you having many friends outside of the church, my own uncle still to this day barely speaks to us. Grandmother got chemo, but of course it was too late. I remember walking into grandmother's room (which I shared a bed in the corner with my brother) and seeing her put on her wig. She said "sweety please leave me for a minute". It crushed her that I saw her secret, she was just that kind of lady. After grandmother died, she willed a lot of stuff to mom and another uncle (not in the church).. The uncle that was in the church was highly miffed, so while we were at the funeral, he took a loading truck and took what he wanted.
Thus, I will shout it from the rooftops before I forget it and I will not be silenced. This is the foundation I remember of which the church you mention sprouted. Perhaps you can begin to understand why exactly why I to this day refuse to paint them rose colored glasses. Jesus didn't have an earthly father, because sins were passed from man to man. Isn't is wonderful that Jesus was perfect this way. All churches of course have had their splits and such, but I will have my say, that people should highly watch out if this church (that the article originates from) still has roots in Armstrong theology.
I myself am not a theologian, don't claim to be. But I think you when you mentioned this was not Worldwide Church of God you should of mentioned that it was an offshoot of Worldwide Church of God unless you didn't know it. You (KC) are of course not as forthcoming about your association with this group (UCG), join date and such and I haven't pried (don't plan on it, none of my business), but still you must of known it's roots. My family lived through many aspects of it from Texas to Florida. I have seen what pastors go through when they went against doctrine from Armstrong, how brutal and powerful that kind of church can be. Loving was far from what I saw. I pray that the offshoot UCG is different, for lots of grandmother's, mom's and children's sake.
Perhaps you would be so good as to post me a schedule of this years Feast and how long is required to attend events. I am curious if they leave enough time for a single mother to take her kids to the beach or park.
Bookmark and using as reference for Worldwide Church of God study...
Feast locations this year.
Blog on Armstrongism
http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/
Worldwide Church of God web site that people can recall life as it was back then. Many sad stories/memories by real people.
Google group on Armstrong ex’s.
http://groups.google.com/group/leavingarmstrongismbehind
Group that seems to keep Armstrong in the forefront...
http://www.thercg.org/home.html
They have their own Feast locations..
http://www.thercg.org/fot.html
Today the Worldwide Church of God is called “Grace Communion International”
"Armstrongism" is generally a derogatory term sometimes applied to those who follow some or all of the doctrines that Herbert Armstrong publicized. Notice that I used "publicize". This is because none of the doctrine Armstrong espoused was really new. It had been taught by others at various times throughout history dating back to Adam and Eve.
Let me tell ya, I will separate on my own terms and not you or anyone will ever ever ever treat me and my family like crap again. Sitting my mom down surrounding her with men that verbally humiliate her for hours making her cry don't cut it anymore.
Accepting your account at face value, I would say that none of the men were displaying Christian behavior. As I said in an earlier post I think that's probably a large reason why God allowed WWCG to be destroyed.
What I meant by "separate" was separating the term and the feast of tabernacles from an organization which essentially no longer exists. The feast of tabernacles is observed by Jews also. It's observed by messianics and holy name groups. It isn't and wasn't the property of Armstrong and/or the Worldwide Church of God.
I will not be silenced on this subject, don't even go down that road. It was like living with a communist group not knowing who would snitch on you for anything they perceived as wrong.
I'm not interested in silencing you. If you feel you need to talk about the injustices experienced by you and your family in an organization that has little or no relevance to me than feel free.
The uncle that was in the church was highly miffed, so while we were at the funeral, he took a loading truck and took what he wanted. Thus, I will shout it from the rooftops before I forget it and I will not be silenced. This is the foundation I remember of which the church you mention sprouted. family lived through many aspects of it from Texas to Florida. I have seen what pastors go through when they went against doctrine from Armstrong, how brutal and powerful that kind of church can be. Loving was far from what I saw.
As I said earlier many people that used to be in Worldwide but are now in United tell similar stories. There were definitely ministers and lay people in that organization that didn't belong in positions of authority. Obviously they were there for different reasons rather than Christian growth and brotherly love.
However, it's instructive to know that actually reading Armstrongs literature is an eye-opener. Reading literature one would never get the sense that so many were abusing power. I don't think Armstrong encouraged it actively, but when people are trying to gain power and authority they'll do practically anything.
But again this wasn't everyone in Worldwide by any means. But there wasn't really a decent set of checks and balances in place to ensure that ministerial abuses didn't happen.
I pray that the offshoot UCG is different, for lots of grandmother's, mom's and children's sake.
It's significantly different in that they DO have checks and balances to guard against this. Eight years ago when I first felt God's call and recognized certain doctrine as truth I was aware of the reputation of Worldwide and became aware of it's breakup and split through study. I chose United precisely because of the stories you're telling. United has a governing body of 12 elders. There IS no one person role. There is President who serves as "the leader" but he needs the council votes to serve. There have been, i think, 3 or 4 Presidents since United was formed in 1995.
Generally I would say that the ministers that are in United strive mightily to AVOID the control and domineering attitudes that you mention. This is from A Brief History of United Church of God:
Concerned with uneven administrative practices of the former assembly, more than 100 ordained ministers developed a new administrative structure that was more directly accountable to members and the ministry.
This is a "nice speak" for United acknowledging that indeed the administrative structure of Worldwide Church of God left a lot to be desired.
Perhaps you would be so good as to post me a schedule of this years Feast and how long is required to attend events. I am curious if they leave enough time for a single mother to take her kids to the beach or park.
I'm actually down at Jekyll Island, Georgia, attending the feast with my family. We're sharing a beach house with a couple of other families. Currently most are gone or are just getting back from walking the beach. I just got back from metal detecting on the beach.
Here is the website for the Jekyll feast:
Here is a link to the Activity Schedule
Generally we have a church service from 10 AM to Noon each day. On the last day there is an additional service from 2:20 to 4:30.
There are some planned activities on different days but none are mandatory.
So yes, to answer your question there's plenty of chances for rest and recreation.
I do know that Worldwide in the past, early on, had 2 LONG services every day of the feast. This may have been what you experienced. I can definitely say that seems very excessive to me too!
My folks were Iowa/Norwegian/Lutherans and their parents all came from the Old Country. All my relatives back there (I'm in California) are still Lutherans as are most of the folks currently living in Norway. The Lutheran theology was a part of my early memories.
My folks were divorced in 1954 and my Mother retained custody of me. We moved to a different town about fifty miles away from where I had grown up and attempted to join the Lutheran Church there. My mother was rejected as a potential member......as she was......(now)......a divorcee'. But.....the Pastor said that I could still attend and take Confirmation/Catechism classes (I was 12 at the time).
I can remember that night, sitting on the stairway, out of sight, and eavesdropping on the conversation the pastor was having with my "divorcee'" Mother in our living room. In fact.....I will never forget it!
I later told the pastor to "Pound Sand" and left the Lutheran Church the day I told him to do so.....face to face. My Father, Grandparents and other relatives were chagrined..... and just knew I was on my way to Hell.
The vision of my Mother sitting on the couch, bawling for about an hour after the pastor had left, is forever etched in my memories. As I grew older I realized that it was the pastor.....and not the congregation.....or the theology that had "treated me and my family like crap".... to coin a phrase.
This incident caused me to begin searching the scriptures at a very young age.....hoping to find some answers. I did find many things in scripture that eventually caused me to feel O.K. about what had transpired....and to even consider it a blessing.
So.....I know what you are feeling. The memories are difficult to live with. I would hope that you eventually are able to get over your bitterness. It took me time to do this and I hold no animosity against the Lutheran Church to this day for that incident. I cannot speak for Douglas but perhaps he feels the same about the Nazarenes. I don't know.
Blessings to your home and all who reside therein.
My wife was also raised Lutheran. When she was younger her grandfather died and her mother came down with MS. The Lutheran pastor told my wife's father that this happened because he hadn't been attending church.
The point is that I think it's easy for anyone in authority to act like jerks. It doesn't matter if they're religious or not. But when they're religious it SEEMS like hypocrisy. But sometimes it's not really hypocrisy, but rather it's human weakness.
And no, I hold no bitterness toward Nazarenes. But there are lessons we can learn from these actions.
Garner Ted Armstrong caught with his pants down finally... not sure exact time this was, but saving for later digestion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkCwBDZqyqk&NR=1
Thanks for the friendly replys. I plan to finally look more deeply into this subject that I avoided for years. It will be bitter sweet, but it time to put it behind me and that means digesting some of it’s ugly history.
Thank you for your reply, God bless you and yours too.
Good luck and God bless on your journey. It may be difficult but I would still try to separate out what is biblical from what men taught.
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Other information I was relayed, Mom and grandmother were not excommunicated from the church as I previously stated. They were up for vote to be kicked out, but the pastor had an affair with a deacon's wife and got caught before the vote and they never brought up the subject again. It didn't matter, the congregation had already disassociated anything to do with us anyway.
1972 was to be the end of the world, so the church preached you could run up as much debt as you wanted/could and not to worry about it (paying it back). My uncle borrowed all grandmother had $28,000 and used it to buy most of a very small town's businesses. Of course 1972 came and left and grandmother never got a dime back.
Mom had the duty of child services to the rest of the church, since she was not allowed to go to higher functions. In one event we had a pastor's son (portly kid) who was mean to us kids on the onslaught, but later learned to love us. He had a ring and got it caught in the swing set at the house and cut him to the bone before mom could free him. Being not able to go to a doctor, mom used olive oil and cleaned him up and got the ring off, but recieved another round of criticism because she was not watching the child well enough.
Thank you for the kind words.....and Shalom also...to you.
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