Posted on 10/26/2009 9:22:24 PM PDT by DouglasKC
I hope you're not a Lutheran....
Do you believe that Moses, Joshua, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc., are Christians?
Let’s see...trust the Greek knowledge of the translators of the ESV & NASB, or you? Tough choice...
OK, lets see how it is translated elsewhere:
Luk 4:9 And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here;
Luk 13:31 Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, “Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You.”
Jhn 7:3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.
Jhn 14:31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”
Jhn 19:18 There they crucified Him, and with Him two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between.
Jam 4:1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve {kinds of} fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
here, here, here, here, this realm, either side, source, either side.
The translators of the ESV & NASB were not fools. They gave a good translation.
You say you don’t follow Armstrong, but are a member of the United Church of God...from Wiki:
UCG is an offshoot of the Worldwide Church of God, which was originally incorporated in the 1940’s as the Radio Church of God by its founder, Herbert W. Armstrong. After Armstrong’s death, the subsequent WCG leadership introduced a series of major doctrinal changes which substantially altered the fundamental beliefs and goals of the original Worldwide Church of God. A segment of the membership wished to retain Herbert Armstrong’s theology and teachings (which is known by non-adherents as “Armstrongism”) and left WCG to start their own organizations. The United Church of God was established in May of 1995 and is the largest of these offshoot organizations.”
Further:
“Doctrinal distinctives include:
* Belief in a non-Trinitarian view of God. Specifically, the belief that the Holy Spirit is the spirit/power of God and of Christ Jesus rather than a separate person in the Godhead. God ‘the Father’ and Jesus Christ are viewed as distinct ‘God beings’ in a ‘God family’.[1] [2][3] [4]
* Belief that Christians are part of the family of God and will at their resurrection be “spirit-born divine beings who are part of Elohim, the universe-ruling family of God.” [5]
* Belief that the core of Jesus Christ’s message was the coming of a literal earthly Kingdom [6][7] and that people who are saved will not go to heaven but will live and rule eternally with Jesus Christ after his second coming. [8]
* Belief that the final destination of the wicked is not everlasting torture but annihilation or permanent destruction. [9]
* Belief in British Israelism, which is the theory that those of Western European descent, primarily the United States and the United Kingdom, are direct physical descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel.[10]
* Belief that Old Covenant laws (excluding ancient civil laws and temple laws) are applicable to Christians today.[11] Examples include seventh-day Sabbath,[12] dietary laws,[13] and Holy Days.[14]”
Just so folks know where you are coming from...when a cult member starts translating, it is best to know he isn’t playing from a full deck.
That would be true - if Jesus was just another man. But He was God as well, and as God could do that with the real souls of Moses and Elijah where as necromancers in addition to dealing with demons were worshiping false gods.
It's also not scriptural to suggest that anyone besides Christ already has eternal life:
Fail to look at the scripture then -
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16* For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36* He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 5:24* Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Ro 6:23* For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Christians have a down payment on eternal life, the holy spirit of God,
It is apparent from the above that Christian have eternal life from the moment of the profession of faith. Timothy citation refers to the Deity of Christ, if you would bother to read the whole passage.
Christians have a down payment on eternal life, the holy spirit of God,
Since the scripture is clear that believers HAVE eternal life BECAUSE we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (God - 3d Person of the Trinity)
Scripture indicates that the fate of the dead is to sleep in the grave until either Christ returns, if you're a Christian, or until the great white throne judgment if you're not
Soul sleep now LOL, getting your sabbatarian groups mixed up. Citiation of the rapture doesn't help your cause since you avoid what scripture clearly says upon death.
2Co 5:6* Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:8* We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
No I didn't. As I said, the standards are in the Scriptures and compiled by the early church.
Hey can I play tear down others too? What denomination do you claim?
You posted this thread as ucg propaganda piece, it is yours to defend.
I don't think you understand what you are trying to correct me on. While Jesus voluntarily gave up His glory to become man, He still remained GOD, and retained all prerogatives therein
That's the sequence. That's why he asked to be glorified before his death.
Do you bother to read your proof texts?
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, - statement of His Deity - Who's glory is an inherent characteristic, that He set aside.
There's no need to theorize a "temporary" glorification. The ONLY thing that matches up with scripture is that the transfiguration was a vision of a future glorification...Christ IN the kingdom of God.
Once again you insist upon a non-scriptural interpretation even in the face of Scripture that says otherwise. As pointed out earlier, they were discussing Jesus' impending crucifixion - NOT some 'future' kingdom. Common sense applied liberally.
He made a statement in verse 1, and then kept the promise by showing those disciples a vision of the future kingdom of God.
For a belief system that claims to follow scripture, it is appalling to see how it is abused.
Mar 9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."
1) till they see Here is that pesky 'eido', actual, physical sight, not a metaphysical 'vision'. In fact the same word is used in all three passages.
2) present Existing or occurring now, not a future event.
WOG Cultic Placemarker
No, just your misinterpretation of the passage. homoios is not ontologically the same as being 'God'.
t makes a clear, scriptural case that God is family, and that we, as his children, are entitled to inherit all things. This shouldn't be a surprise...God modeled earthly things after heavenly things. Earthly families resemble, or should resemble, the heavenly family.
Well then since you are endorsing "What is you destiny", you accept polytheism.
Dogs beget dogs, humans beget humans, spirit begets spirit. God is spirit.
How mormonesque again, do you believe that you were a spirit child too - is there a god-mother?
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
We are children by adoption - not by procreation. We are not god-material. A clay bowl is not ontologically equivalent to the Creator.
Indeed! Especially when they are selective in their 'translation' and refuse to incorporate parallel passages that clarify the translation.
The Roman "church" rejected YHvH's commanded Feasts It is very easy and comfortably self-satisfying to call someone
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
else's belief a cult particularly when you follow the "church"'s Paganism
started at Nicea by Constantine who rejected the Holy Word of G-d.
and substituted Pagan Feasts.
e.g Easter, Christmas and Sunday.
Thank you for your replies. They are good ones!
They wouldn't have called themselves Christians but they had God's spirit and followed Christ.
Hey...you forgot to answer this one.
Where in scripture does it say you have to believe in "X" to be a Christian?
Very true, but a hard sell to those that have misconstrued "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and those that wish to pray to dead men.
Otherwise how could the "dead" be raised?
“It is very easy and comfortably self-satisfying to call someone
else’s belief a cult particularly when you follow the “church”’s Paganism
started at Nicea by Constantine who rejected the Holy Word of G-d. “
What is Christian and what is not Christian have been
well defined throughout history.
What Word of God do you believe was rejected at Nicea?
It stems from a belief in an immortal soul. Many don't realize that eternal life is a gift from God.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Sin = death, eternal life is a gift given to believers upon being resurrected. The spirit is a promise, a guarantee of that.
2Co 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
The test of whether we have eternal life NOW or the promise of a future eternal life is easy. Do we die? So far every human who ever lived has died. Only one has been resurrected to glory, Jesus Christ.
What is Christian and what is not Christian have been well defined throughout history.
What Word of God do you believe was rejected at Nicea?
Passover and all the other of YHvH's Holy commanded Feast Days were rejected From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.
from DOCUMENTS FROM THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA [THE FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL] A.D. 325 Emperor Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire He had issued an Edict making Sunday the day of rest In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine
They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day."
and replaced with Pagan feast days; the feast days of the Evil One.
Whatever some people think was the purpose of the Council of Nicea,
the following is what the Roman Pontiff who called and supervised
the council thought was the most important for the world to know.
The following was promulgated to the whole Roman Empire for their understanding and compliance: ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.(The Pagan feast of easter)
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.) When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was
universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the
feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,
than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of
immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same
manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the
holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the
Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and
whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may
transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,
which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the
present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not,
therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour
has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and
more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and
consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest
brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the
Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without
their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the
right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led
by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them? They
do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness
and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two
passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly
in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most
certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one
year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still
be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such
wicked people[the Jews]. Besides, consider well, that in such an
important matter, and on a subject of such great solemnity, there ought
not to be any division. Our Saviour has left us only one festal day of
our redemption, that is to say, of his holy passion, and he desired[to
establish] only one Catholic Church. Think, then, how unseemly it is,
that on the same day some should be fasting whilst others are seated
at a banquet; and that after Easter, some should be rejoicing at feasts,
whilst others are still observing a strict fast. For this reason, a Divine
Providence wills that this custom should be rectified and regulated in a
uniform way; and everyone, I hope, will agree upon this point. As, on
the one hand, it is our duty not to have anything in common with the
murderers of our Lord; and as, on the other, the custom now followed
by the Churches of the West, of the South, and of
the North, and by some of those of the East, is the most acceptable, it
has appeared good to all; and I have been guarantee for your consent,
that you would accept it with joy, as it is followed at Rome, in Africa,
in all Italy, Egypt, Spain, Gaul, Britain, Libya, in all Achaia, and in the
dioceses of Asia, of Pontus, and Cilicia. You should consider not only
that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but
also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we
should have nothing in common with the Jews. To sum up in few
words: By the unanimous judgment of all, it has been decided that the
most holy festival of Easter should be everywhere celebrated on one
and the same day, and it is not seemly that in so holy a thing there
should be any division. As this is the state of the case, accept joyfully
the divine favour, and this truly divine command; for all which takes
place in assemblies of the bishops ought to be regarded as proceeding
from the will of God. Make known to your brethren what has been
decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we
can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted
me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together,
seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for
destroying the evil designs of the devil, and thus causing faith, peace,
and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my
beloved brethren.
This is the Decree from the Pontiff of the Roman church to all the world.
declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire: "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest,
Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were
and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture
may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day
is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment
for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."
to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath.
The test of whether we have eternal life NOW or the promise of a future eternal life is easy. Do we die? So far every human who ever lived has died. Only one has been resurrected to glory, Jesus Christ.
This ignores the question of whether we have any other life than physical life.
If we don't have spiritual life, then how can we be ...... "absent from the body, present with the Lord" ?Also, ... did Jesus have any type of life between His death ... and resurrection ?
Didn't He descend into hell to preach to the spirits which were imprisoned there ?Ephesians 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,And ... btw, ... what type of life did these disobedient spirits have ?
19 through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
It certainly wasn't physical.
Except for enoch and elijah
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