Posted on 10/26/2009 9:22:24 PM PDT by DouglasKC
Are you a Christian sir?
Uri,
So your beef is that the Church celebrates Easter, when
Christ rose from the dead? That they worship on Sundays,
Lord’s Day of Resurrection?
And your secondary beef is that the Church doesn’t celebrate
the days of feasting given to the nation of Israel?
The Feast Days were not given to the Church to celebrate.
They are not commanded to be celebrated by the Church
in the Epistles to the Churches - nor is the Sabbath commanded
to be celebrated. Those days were commanded to the nation
of Israel, which is distinct from the Church. Neither is the
Passover.
Nor are there Jews and Gentiles in Christ. The body of
Christ, the Church, is composed of all who trust in
Christ for salvation - not recognizing Jews or Gentiles.
Those who seek to put up artificial distinctions and
divide the Body of Christ are mistaken.
best,
ampu
My understanding is that God created us physical and temporary:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
There are two bodies as Paul points out. A natural body and spiritual body. Paul goes through great lengths in this chapter to explain it.
On the other hand there IS a "spirit of man":
1Co 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Paul is making the case that though there is a spiritual component to man, it's not the same as the spirit of God. The spirit of man can't comprehend the things of the spirit of God. This spirit of man is what gives us our intellect...it's the difference between us and the animals.
If we don't have spiritual life, then how can we be ...
... "absent from the body, present with the Lord" ?
2Co 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
2Co 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Paul knew when we have eternal life:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
It happens, according to Paul, at he resurrection. When you read the "absent from the body" you're presupposing that Paul meant that we was going to go to heaven right away. He didn't say that. He said that when he didn't have a physical body he would be with the Lord. Completely true.
Didn't He descend into hell to preach to the spirits which were imprisoned there ?
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
1Pe 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
The spirits in prison are demons:
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Christ preached to them either after being glorified back to spirit...or back in the days of Noah before he incarnated.
Interesting question given the teachings of the ucg that, with the exception of them, of course, the rest of Christianity has fallen into apostasy. You spoke truth concerning the core doctrines of ucg as well. So instead of clarifying or defending those points, you are asked this. However, by exposing this, it is possible that you will now be considered, shall we say, persona non gratis because you don't smother it in sugary, sloppy agape'.
I don't think it's just UCG that thinks that Christianity has fallen into apostasy. There are major Christian denominations that have clearly done so. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has decided that non-repentent homosexuals can serve in the clergy. Anglican have appointed a gay bishop. Mega churches teach prosperity gospels. TV preachers fleece the flock. Christianity is a big business and many retailers, booksellers and others exploit the name of Christ to earn a buck.
No, there's no doubt that Christianity IS in apostasy. It's the natural result of failing to recognize sin.
Is UCG perfect? Of course not. All organizations of men are prone to corruption. All's we can hope to do is recognize those who have the spirit of Christ and fellowship with them.
You spoke truth concerning the core doctrines of ucg as well.
You did and it's no secret. It's public. It's the mission of the organization to publicize it. The organization maintains several websites in order to fulfill the great commission:
So instead of clarifying or defending those points, you are asked this. However, by exposing this, it is possible that you will now be considered, shall we say, persona non gratis because you don't smother it in sugary, sloppy agape'
As I told you freepmail, I don't have a problem clarifying or defending a point. I do have a problem continuing to communicate with people who are rude, ungracious and impolite. And especially when they claim to have the spirit of Christ.
And your secondary beef is that the Church doesn’t celebrate the days of feasting given to the nation of Israel?
The Feast Days were not given to the Church to celebrate.
They are not commanded to be celebrated by the Church in the Epistles to the Churches - nor is the Sabbath commanded to be celebrated. Those days were commanded to the nation of Israel, which is distinct from the Church. Neither is the Passover.
Nor are there Jews and Gentiles in Christ. The body of Christ, the Church, is composed of all who trust in Christ for salvation - not recognizing Jews or Gentiles. Those who seek to put up artificial distinctions and divide the Body of Christ are mistaken.
best,
ampu
They were given to all mankind first to be celebrated; Yah'shua did not rise on Easter; Easter is no where near the Passover John the Immerser proclaimed Yah'shua as the Lamb of G-d. He died on the YHvH commanded feast of Hag HaMatzot-Unleavened Bread He rose from the dead on the YHvH commanded Feast day of First Fruits Easter has no connection whatever to Yah'shua; it is a Pagan Fable. The creation of Easter by Constantine is an affront to the creator of the universe The Spirit of G-d descended on the apostles on the YHvH commanded The next YHvH commanded Feast to be re-celebrated is the Feast of Trumpets, All of this information can be found in G-d's Holy Word in Leviticus 23 The Apostles who were all Jews, continued to celebrate YHvH's commanded Feast Days. There is nothing in the Holy Word of G-d stopping the celebration of YHvH's commanded Feasts. Looking carefully and prayerfully at the Gospels, one will see that Yah'shua celebrated Shabbat. He rebuked the Pharisees for changing or adding man-made Traditions which impugned The church or Ekklesia are all those who are called out by YHvH as His assembled people. See Deuteronomy 4:10 YHvH commanded His Feast Days for all mankind both to His chosen people Yah'shua answered the scribes and Peter heard and had his amanuensis, Mark, write down. NAU Deuteronomy 5:10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NAU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. YHvH gave His Feast Days to all of mankind not just the Jews.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
there is also a prophetic metaphor contained when He re-celebrated on His first coming.
which Yah'shua celebrated with His Apostles known to some as the last supper.
The blood of the slain Lamb of G-d was used to cover
the sins so the angel of death would passover all who
accepted the the lamb's blood sacrifice on their doorway.
Yah'shua celebrated his last passover as the Lamb of G-d.,
a YHvH commanded Feast day, on the evening of the 14th of Nisan.
where He gave new meaning to the third cup of wine and the afikomen
the 15th of Nisan, where all leaven, a metaphor for sin, is removed.
(Hag ha Bikkurim) which occurs on the day following the shabbat following Passover.
Most likely at the beginning of the G-d commanded day at sundown after shabbat.
This is the day that the best of the harvest is offered to G-d.
and the sacrifice offered for all of mankind for the redemption of sin.
Feast of Shavuot also known as Pentecost in the LXX.
on the first day of the month of Tishrei, during which the last trumpet is blown.
The only Feast for which the day nor hour can not be known until it arrives.
This is why John says he was in the spirit on the YHvH's Day: Shabbat in Rev 1:10.
the Holy Word of G-d and the celebration of His Shabbat. NAU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before YHvH your God at Horeb,
Man was never given permission by YHvH to replace His commanded Feast Days
when YHvH said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words
and replace them with pagan feast days commanded by the Evil One.
and with Paul to the Gentiles who were to be grafted in to His assembled people as well. NAU Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is,
There is but one YHvH and I choose to follow His Commandments.
'HEAR, O ISRAEL! YHvH OUR GOD IS ONE YHvH (Deu 6:4) NAU Exodus 20:6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
also see:
Exod. 20:6; Deut. 5:10; 7:9; 11:1, 13; 30:16; Jos. 22:5; Neh. 1:5;
Ps. 119:47f, 127; Dan. 9:4; Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10; 1 Jn. 5:2f; 2 Jn. 1:6
Be precise doug - ucg claims that it has been apostate since the end of the apostolic era. Of course Armstrong claimed to have ucg (and other armstrong splinters) claim to be the one true church - big difference and classic characteristic of a cult.
Christianity is a big business and many retailers, booksellers and others exploit the name of Christ to earn a buck.
And 'ol Herbert spent oodles and oodles of money as he raked in a 30% tithe (wow mormonism looks good compared to this).
You did and it's no secret. It's public. It's the mission of the organization to publicize it. The organization maintains several websites in order to fulfill the great commission:
Point by point the doctrine is that laid out by Armstrong. You earlier stated you didn't pay any particular attention to him - yet every doctrine being espoused here by ucg has its fundamental basis in armstrong.
All's we can hope to do is recognize those who have the spirit of Christ and fellowship with them.
How so, since according to the teaching of armstrong (and adopted by the ucg) we all are under "a counterfeit message" that denies us this 'spirit'. Actually, I'm glad I have the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Trinity, and not this amorphous spirit talked about by the ucg.
As I told you freepmail, I don't have a problem clarifying or defending a point. I do have a problem continuing to communicate with people who are rude, ungracious and impolite. And especially when they claim to have the spirit of Christ.
Hmmmmm, point out flaws in translation application - rude
Identify teachings as being cultic and non-Christian - ungracious
Have the audacity not to let false statement stand - impolite.
Come on Doug, you've been around the block here in FR Religion long enough to know that you better develop thick skin when having your theology challenged (heaven knows I've had to), and that has nothing to do with challenging the 'spirit' in my life. Lurkers don't particularly pay attention to a victim card being played.
“YHvH gave His Feast Days to all of mankind not just the
Jews.
Scripture reference that says this please... Leviticus 24 says...
” 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and
say to them: ‘These are my appointed feasts ...” In fact
God addresses “the Israelites” throughout the whole chapter -
not all mankind, so I am thinking you must be referring to
another passage that extends the feasts to all mankind. I
just don’t know what passage you are referring to. Please
point me to such a passage.
“...there is also a prophetic metaphor contained when He
re-celebrated on His first coming.
Here, we agree.
“Easter has no connection whatever to Yah’shua; it is a
Pagan Fable.”
Not exactly (see end of post) Easter is a day of remembering
Christ’s Resurrection. I celebrate THAT - not any pagan
celebration.
“The creation of Easter by Constantine is an affront to
the creator of the universe and the sacrifice offered for
all of mankind for the redemption of sin.”
Sorry, here I don’t find God upset that the Church remembers
to celebrate the Resurrection on Easter. Constantine did not
“create Easter”. He unified it’s celebration to end a faction.
“The Apostles who were all Jews, continued to celebrate YHvH’s commanded Feast Days.”
At first, because as you note, they were of Jewish lineage
and upbringing. They did not command this of the Church
of Christ.
“There is nothing in the Holy Word of G-d stopping the celebration of YHvH’s commanded Feasts.”
No, and Jews (not those who have become Christians) should
be doing what they were commanded.
“Looking carefully and prayerfully at the Gospels, one will see that Yah’shua celebrated Shabbat.”
Of course, He was Jewish and fulfilled all righteousness. He
could do no other.
“The church or Ekklesia are all those who are called out by YHvH as His assembled people.”
The Church is the Body of Christ. This is different than
the nation of Israel. Christians have no problem using
the word Church.
“Man was never given permission by YHvH to replace His
commanded Feast Days and replace them with pagan feast
days commanded by the Evil One.”
I think we already covered Jews being obedient to what they
were commanded, which is different than what the Body
of Christ was commanded in the Epistles.
“YHvH commanded His Feast Days for all mankind both to His
chosen people and with Paul to the Gentiles who were to be
grafted in to His assembled people as well.
Scripture reference for the second part of your claim please... I know of no writing of Paul that commands the
celebration of Jewish Feast Days.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As extra historic material (for anyone lurking here) about
the background of the celebration of Easter...
“Easter was originally observed on the day following the end of the Passover fast (14 Nisan), regardless of the day of the week on which it fell. In the mid-second century, however, some Gentile Christians began to celebrate it on the Sunday after 14 Nisan, with the preceding Friday observed as the day of Christ’s crucifixion, regardless of the date on which it fell. The resulting controversy over the correct time for observing the Easter festival reached a head in a.d. 197, when Victor of Rome excommunicated those Christians who insisted on celebrating Easter on 14 Nisan. The dispute continued until the early fourth century, when the Quarto-decimans (from Latin for ‘14’) were required by Emperor Constantine to conform to the empire-wide practice of observing Easter on the Sunday following 14 Nisan, rather than on that date itself.”
(Harpers Bible Dictionary)
best,
ampu
Yes, I’m a Christian. Based on your church’s theology, you are not.
Examples include:
“Doctrinal distinctives include:
* Belief in a non-Trinitarian view of God. Specifically, the belief that the Holy Spirit is the spirit/power of God and of Christ Jesus rather than a separate person in the Godhead. God ‘the Father’ and Jesus Christ are viewed as distinct ‘God beings’ in a ‘God family’.[1] [2][3] [4]
* Belief that Christians are part of the family of God and will at their resurrection be “spirit-born divine beings who are part of Elohim, the universe-ruling family of God.” [5]
* Belief that the core of Jesus Christ’s message was the coming of a literal earthly Kingdom [6][7] and that people who are saved will not go to heaven but will live and rule eternally with Jesus Christ after his second coming. [8]
* Belief that the final destination of the wicked is not everlasting torture but annihilation or permanent destruction. [9] ...
* Belief that Old Covenant laws (excluding ancient civil laws and temple laws) are applicable to Christians today.[11] Examples include seventh-day Sabbath,[12] dietary laws,[13] and Holy Days.[14]”
My understanding is that God created us physical and temporary:1 Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.There are two bodies as Paul points out. A natural body and spiritual body. Paul goes through great lengths in this chapter to explain it.
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Yes ... we are born with a natural body ... and we await the gift of our spiritual body.
But, we have also been gifted with the Spirit of Christ.
And the Spirit of Christ testifies to our spirits that we are already the children of God.Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.We are already kings and priests in God's kingdom.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God
From the letter to the seven churches which were in Asia ...Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Polytheism. How God is not a trinity and the Spirit of God is not a person. (This was long a heretical doctrine. How on earth can anybody claim that Armstrong “restored” a lost teaching when the teaching was always around but was rejected for the very sound reason that the Scriptures do indeed reveal God to be a Holy Trinity? The teaching that God is not a trinity and the Holy Spirit is not a person was 'alive and healthy' among Unitarians long before Armstrong was born. Unitarianism emerged in 16th century England and Hungary. Nothing new in Armstrong's approach. It was 'old hat' but rejected for solid scriptural reasons! So in what sense can Armstrong have “restored” it?)
Belief that Christians are part of the family of God and will at their resurrection be “spirit-born divine beings who are part of Elohim, the universe-ruling family of God.”
The Purpose of God – and how He is reproducing Himself through mankind. (Again, there is nothing new about this heretical teaching since Mormons already held it. The teaching does not occur in the Bible so mainline Christianity rejected it for wholly biblical reasons).
Yes, distinctive - distinctively not orthodox Christianity, built upon a flawed theological basis.
I agree completely.
We are already kings and priests in God's kingdom. From the letter to the seven churches which were in Asia ... 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
I would agree that we are kings and priests who do not yet have an earthly realm. But this is promised. In Daniels prophecy of the end time:
Dan 7:23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
Dan 7:26 'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever.
Dan 7:27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'
Also:
Rev 5:10 You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."
I'll readily admit that some of what I believe disagrees with the traditions of some Christian churches. But they are tradition and as such they're not the benchmark of Christianity.
It's the indwelling spirit of Christ that makes me a Christian. Not what you believe or what any other man believes. Christ alone is able to make a righteous determination of whether or not God's spirit dwells in me.
However, there are inward and outward evidences of the spirit of God:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
While not having God's spirit or ignoring God's spirit is:
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
As far as doctrine, I've been on this board a long time and I've discussed each one of those points many many times. You're welcome to go through my posting history and see my views on them. But this thread is specific and I'd like to keep it to the subject at hand.
Oh...and here's what the first century church considered foundational doctrines of Christianity:
Hbr 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
COG placemarker
Paul plainly says there is the ‘milk’ of the Word ... Salvation.. and the ‘meat’ of the Word. And the idea is that once the receiver of the ‘milk’ then matures and moves into the ‘meat’ of the Word. Soul sleep is neither milk or meat.
When was Christ resurrected? And if the soul is sleeping how could Lazarus be seen in Abraham's bosom?
In John 3 Christ told Nicodemus what is required just to ‘see’ the kingdom of God. And in verse 10 Christ makes clear that what he was telling Nicodemus was not new as he asks him, “Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things. Then Christ plainly explains what he is saying in verse 13... And no man hath ascended up to heave, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of Man Which is in heaven.
Paul says in Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Do you think the devil is sleeping, and will get a second bite at the proverbial apple?
See Solomon penned in Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. And it was obvious that Nicodemus was not familiar with this teaching else he would have understood what Christ was saying that Unless one be born from above they would not see the kingdom of God.
And as well when Moses wrote Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The spirit is the intellect of the soul and it was the ‘spirits’ that Christ offered salvation to in Peter all the way back to the beginning. NOT demons.
I agree with a caveat...you bring up a point about milk and meat that I haven't studied that closely. But it sounds right.
Soul sleep is neither milk or meat. When was Christ resurrected? And if the soul is sleeping how could Lazarus be seen in Abraham's bosom?
One of the things listed as foundational was "resurrection".
The resurrection of Christ was because he was the first of the harvest, the first fruit. To stay with harvest analogy not all crops ripen at the same time. There's an order of harvest.
I think that the story of Lazarus wasn't a literal description of heaven and hell, but a parable to show the relationship and attitude that Pharisees (the rich man)
Luk 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
had to the gentiles (Lazarus). It was a warning to not be smug about their place and position.
If it WERE a literal description of heaven and hell our reward is to lay in Abrahams bosom. It never mentions God or Christ as being in the afterlife. It was a warning using terms and ideas that non-believing jews would recognize.
In John 3 Christ told Nicodemus what is required just to ‘see’ the kingdom of God. And in verse 10 Christ makes clear that what he was telling Nicodemus was not new as he asks him, “Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things. Then Christ plainly explains what he is saying in verse 13... And no man hath ascended up to heave, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of Man Which is in heaven.
I'm not quite sure of the point you're making...but these verses affirm that you have to be begotten of the spirit in order to be resurrected with an eternal, spiritual body because that's the only way you can inherit the kingdom.
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Paul says in Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. Do you think the devil is sleeping, and will get a second bite at the proverbial apple?
Scripturally death is the FINAL enemy:
1Cr 15:24 Then [comes] the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death.
In verse 24, Paul is saying that Christ will return and put all earthly governments under him. ALL rule. ALL authority. ALL power is ended. No more human government, but a government of God. That's the gospel of the kingdom.
See Solomon penned in Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. And it was obvious that Nicodemus was not familiar with this teaching else he would have understood what Christ was saying that Unless one be born from above they would not see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemeus would have been VERY familiar with Ecclesiastes 12:7 but he wouldn't have interpreted it the same way.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
This of course is referring to:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
The breath of life, whatever constitutes it, will return to God. But this isn't a conscious part of our bodies.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do [it] with your might; for [there is] no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
I think you're right that this "breath of life" is a component of man that gives us our intellect and what sets us apart from being animals.
The spirit is the intellect of the soul and it was the ‘spirits’ that Christ offered salvation to in Peter all the way back to the beginning. NOT demons.
I'm not sure what you mean...can you clarify?
Thanks in advance for your response....
Armstrongism cultic placemark
For any who is reading, my response is:
"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."
When someone is questioning, of COURSE we should entertain their questions. When someone is wrong about doctrine, it is a bit dicier.
When I lived in Utah, the Mormons would try to convert me, and I them, but all understood we were not part of the same church or believers in the same God. So that was fair.
I debate with a number of Catholics on these boards concerning serious issues - but we worship God, accept the Trinity, believe baptism & communion are both valuable, etc. We differ on extent, and I freely admit I believe many, if not all, Popes have not been Christians. When John Paul 2 says folks can be saved apart from Jesus Christ, I have more hope for the soul of Teddy Kennedy than I do for him.
But cults are NOT my fellow Christians. We are NOT brothers in Christ. And John has told us what to do: "do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works"!
I do not believe I have been rude or mean on this thread. But neither will I compromise in the name of a unity that doesn't exist. "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them." - Acts 20
But neither will I compromise in the name of a unity that doesn't exist.
And that is what is being pressed here - tacit approval of non-Christian doctrines.
Hey Doug, it's been good talking with you again ...
It's been an interesting discussion.
I know I'm going back a bit, ... but earlier you stated ...
It's also not scriptural to suggest that anyone besides Christ already has eternal life:
Would John think so ... ?1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
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