Radio Replies First Volume - Fasting

Celledoor.com ^ | 1938 | Fathers Rumble & Carty

[GonzoII]

Fasting

1184. You claim to legislate in purely spiritual things, yet order fast and abstinence on certain days. There is nothing spiritual in forbidding people to eat meat.

I have never said that the Church legislates only in spiritual matters. Men are not purely spiritual beings, and in our composite nature, spiritual legislation must in some way affect our material being. The laws of the Church cover material things in so far as they affect our spiritual welfare. There is nothing spiritual about meat in itself. But spiritual virtue is exercised when we abstain from meat from a motive of self-denial, gratitude, and obedience to God.

1185. Is there any Scripture warrant for fasting?

Yes. When the Pharisees complained to Christ that His disciples did not fast, He replied that they did not while He was with them, but that they would when He had gone from them. Mk 2:18. Now the Catholic Church, ordered by Christ to teach all nations whatsoever Christ had said to her, tells us that at certain times we must fast in expiation of our sins. St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "Let us exhibit ourselves as servants of God, in patience, in fastings." A Christian spirit of reparation says, "I indulged my senses at the expense of God's law; I will therefore now mortify them at the expense of my own comfort." However it is part of Christian law, and those who say that the Catholic Church obliges fasting while other Churches do not, complain as usual that the Catholic Church is fulfilling the Christian law while others are not. And the Catholic Church appoints special days, for if it were left to individuals they would fast very irregularly, or not at all. It is much better to make it definite.

1186. Why forbid meat on Fridays? Christ said that nothing from without defiles a man, but that it is disposition of soul that counts. Mk 7:15.

It follows that meat is not evil in itself, and that the Church does not forbid meat on Fridays because she thinks that meat will defile men. That should be evident from the fact that the Church permits meat on other days, as she could not do if she believed meat to be evil. Therefore it must be a question of the day, and not of the meat. Why then does the Church forbid meat on Fridays? Because on that day Christ gave His life for us in misery and suffering. If a Catholic eats meat on that day, the meat does not defile him, but his interior disposition of ingratitude and disobedience certainly does. If a man is not prepared to give up a little meat on the day Christ gave up His life, he is not worthy to be ranked as a Christian. The Friday abstinence has kept Our Lord's sacrifice and death before the minds of millions of Catholics for centuries. To the vast majority of the Protestant Churches which abolished this beautiful practice merely because the Catholic Church had the grace to fulfill it, Friday is just like Tuesday, or Wednesday, or Thursday, and their members do not think week by week of the greatest event that ever occurred in history for love of us. I have never yet received a convert into the Church who has not seen the beauty of this devotedness to Christ, and of the loyalty with which the Church recalls Friday as the day of the greatest event in our redemption. That non-Catholics should be silent about this Catholic custom I could understand. But that they should still profess to be Christians and then blame the Catholic Church for such a generous and loving act in honor of Christ merely because they do not do it themselves is astonishing.

1187. The Bible says that Anti-Christ will bid men abstain from meats. 1 Tim 4:3.

The reference is to men who teach that meat is evil in itself and who declare that it is wicked to eat it under any circumstances. But Catholics do not believe or teach this. Almost any butcher will tell you that he supplies many Catholic customers regularly with meat.

1188. When did the practice of Friday abstinence from meat begin?

In the very earliest ages of the Church. The practice is mentioned in the Didache or Doctrine of the Twelve Apostles, a booklet written by one of the immediate followers of the Apostles in the year 90.

1189. Who said that every man will go to hell if he eats meat on Friday?

No one. The Catholic Church says that it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to eat meat on Friday knowingly and wilfully, without a sufficiently grave and excusing reason. Then that Church says that if a man dies in unrepented mortal sin, he will go to hell.

1190. I don't blame Catholics for voluntarily abstaining from meat on Fridays, but to do so because ordered to do so is making a virtue of necessity.

That is not true. No Catholic is physically compelled to abstain from meat on Fridays. It is a moral obligation, adding the virtue of obedience to that of Christian mortification. On your method of reasoning you should say that a man should voluntarily abstain from stealing, and that it is wrong to do so because God has said, "Thou shalt not steal." And do the laws of the land destroy the virtue of citizens because there is a moral obligation to observe them?

1191. Ought not Catholics to abstain from intoxicating drink on Fridays?

There is no law obliging them to do so. Of course there is always the law of conscience forbidding drinking to excess on any day. Yet, although there is no law forbidding drink in moderation on Fridays, it would be a very good and meritorious action if a man did abstain voluntarily from alcoholic drink on that day in a spirit of mortification and self-denial. But that would not dispense him from the obligation to abstain from meat. Let a man fulfill the law, and then do more if he wishes. Obedience is better than sacrifices prompted by one's own opinions.

1192. Would it not be better for the Church to forbid intoxicants rather than harmless meat?

It would not. The Church wishes to forbid a thing wich most of her people will miss. Practically all eat meat; not all by any means drink intoxicants. All are united in a common act of mortification. There is a tendency in men to think that all laws should conform to their own pet ideas. A man likes his meat and dislikes drink. So he suggests that the Church should rather forbid drink than meat. But drink does not affect all men; meat affects practically all.

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[T Minus Four]

Still, the Church is here for no other purpose but to lead us to salvation in Christ; it is therefore the Church’s duty to set up necessary obligations and not allow us to solely depend on our own whim.

I think actually that is the job of the Holy Spirit, not by obligations imposed by men.

[annalex]

Now you simply insist on ignoring St. Paul's words. "Let us" is not enough of a commandment for you?

It is often the case that the Protestant translations seek to obfuscate the original. So yours says "hunger"? Ha.

εν πληγαις εν φυλακαις εν ακαταστασιαις εν κοποις εν αγρυπνιαις εν νηστειαις (2 Cor. 6:5)

και νηστευσας ημερας τεσσαρακοντα και νυκτας τεσσαρακοντα υστερον επεινασεν (Mt 4:2)

οταν δε νηστευητε μη γινεσθε ωσπερ οι υποκριται [...]
συ δε νηστευων αλειψαι σου την κεφαλην και το προσωπον σου νιψαι οπως μη φανης τοις ανθρωποις νηστευων αλλα τω πατρι σου τω εν τω κρυπτω και ο πατηρ σου ο βλεπων εν τω κρυπτω αποδωσει σοι(Mt 6:16-18)

δια τι ημεις και οι φαρισαιοι νηστευομεν πολλα οι δε μαθηται σου ου νηστευουσιν [...] και τοτε νηστευσουσιν (Mt 9:14-15)

τουτο δε το γενος ουκ εκπορευεται ει μη εν προσευχη και νηστεια (Mt 17:21)

And so on, -- I only quoted Matthew. Throughout, the same word as in 2 Cor 6, νηστεια, "fast", is used in different inflections.

that is the job of the Holy Spirit, not by obligations imposed by men

The former does not exclude the latter. The Holy Spirit is Who guides the Church.

[T Minus Four]

No, of course not, "let us", is not a commandment.

Here, I'll give you the argument that it is literally "fast", which causes hunger. Don't you see that the pasage is saying, LET US conduct ourselves for God's glory no matter what the circumstance are, in the good and in the bad?

It doesn't say Thou shalt fast. Let's review verses 4 thru 6 from the translation you have:

4 But in all things let us exhibit ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in tribulation, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in prisons, in seditions, in labours, in watchings, in fastings, 6 In chastity, in knowledge, in longsuffering, in sweetness, in the Holy Ghost, in charity unfeigned

Are we also "commanded" to be whipped and go to prison?

By the way, I am delighted to see that you go back to the original Greek of the New Testament.

[T Minus Four]

I like to refer to lots of different translations when a passage is being quetioned. I own about a dozen different bibles and love to use www.biblegateway.com. It's a great site, check it out. 2 Corinthians 6:5

In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;(King James Version),

in stripes, in prisons, in riots, in labours, in watchings, in fastings (Darby Translation)

We have been beaten, been put in prison, faced angry mobs, worked to exhaustion, endured sleepless nights, and gone without food. (New living Translation)

in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings (American Standard Version)

in stripes, in imprisonments, in insurrections, in labours, in watchings, in fastings (Youngs Literal Translation)

We have been beaten, jailed, and mobbed; we have been overworked and have gone without sleep or food (Good News Bible)

In stripes, in prisons, in seditions, in labours, in watchings, in fastings,(Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

in hard times, tough times, bad times; when we're beaten up, jailed, and mobbed; working hard, working late, working without eating;(The Message)

[T Minus Four]

The Holy Spirit is Who guides the Church.

See, this is where I am reminded that we speak different languages. To me "the church" is the group of people who are true believers and have surrendered themelves to Jesus.

To you, "the church" is the authority of the Catholic institution.

I'd like to respectfully point out that the Holy Spirit indwells individual people, not institutions. The very same Holy Spirit who came to the believers on Passover, live in me now. I'm telling you, it almost makes me fall to my knees in awe! Heh, sometimew it does.

I fall down and I sin, but my eyes have been opened and my ears can now hear. I wish you could know how beautiful it is to realize that we have been set free! It is irrelevant if we are circumsized or uncircumsized.

[annalex]

Are we also "commanded" to be whipped and go to prison?

We are commanded to continue in God's ministry as we are whipped or jailed, yes. St. Paul indeed mixes things that are done to us, such as persecutions, and things that we do voluntarily, as vigils (watchings), fasting, chastity, and knowledge. He commands both kinds.

refer to lots of different translations when a passage is being quetioned

The reason Protestant translations exist in the first place is to lie about the Gospel. Read Douay, and check with the Greek original. You can safely ignore the rest.

To me "the church" is the group of people who are true believers and have surrendered themelves to Jesus.

To you, "the church" is the authority of the Catholic institution.

The Catholic Church is both a group of people, here and in the afterlife, and an institution founded by God and lead by Him. The passage about the Church in Matthew 18, cited before on this thread, is meaningless if it were to refer to the Protestant communities of faith, which cannot agree on much between themselves and don't even pretend to be final arbiters of anything. The proper definition of Church is given by St. Paul as the body of Christ, hierarchical and undivided (1 Cor 12, Col 1, John 17)

[T Minus Four]

Oh for Pete’s sake, you’re digging here. Explain how then are we supposed to know which things we are commanded to do, and which we endure if they happen if Paul “mixes” them? Should we choose to be whipped instead of eating a McDonald’s McFish sandwich with large fries and a Coke? (not such a bad tradeoff, actually) And wait, what do you mean “things we do voluntarily” such as fasting? Earlier you said it was a commandment, and a mortal sin if we didn’t. That sounds obligatory, not voluntary.

That’s a pretty harsh judgement you have there annalex. “Protestant” translations were created for the purpose of lying? Well then. You’ve been indoctrinated well, I see. I am very sorry and sad for you.

I guess we are done here then. The Word of God does not lie, although I agree that there are groups who twist it to control people and suit their own purposes. My only agenda is Jesus and the salvation he offers. For free.

[annalex]

We are commanded to do all of this:

4 But in all things let us exhibit ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in tribulation, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in prisons, in seditions, in labours, in watchings, in fastings, 6 In chastity, in knowledge, in longsuffering, in sweetness, in the Holy Ghost, in charity unfeigned

Point by point:

1. we should be ministers of God
2. we should have muich patience in tribulations, need, and distress
3. When we underfgo punishment, are jailed or in political struggle (all that is something done to us)
4. We are also to be patient when we work (what follows is the list of things we do ourselves)
5. patient when we celebrate vigils (in other word, spend long time praying)
6. patient when we fast (you see how that "hunger" translation doesn't fit the context, beside being linguistically incorrect, -- St. Paul already mentioned various privations such as hunger and would have no need to repeat it between vigils and chastity)
7. patient when we lead a chaste life (and devil tempts us to sexual activity)
8. patient when we study to gain knowledge
9. patient as we endure for a long time, maintaining sweet disposition under the leadership of the Holy Ghost
10. patient as we extend charity

A fast is something you do yourself. When the Church says to abstain from meat (a form of fast), the Church is not going to raid your refrigerator and remove meat products. If she did so, that would no longer be fast, but hunger: enduring the lack of food. It is nevertheless a commandment. You fast because you want to participate in the suffering of Christ.

***

I have a long list of mistranslations in various Protestant Bibles, similar to this one. If you are interested, I can point to quite a few. They all have one thing in common: the original meaning is too Catholic, so it is changed to better suit Protestant theological fantasies. A Protestant, especially given the professed interest in the scripture above all else, should ask himself: Why do they lie to me?

[T Minus Four]

I said we’re done. You’re lost.

[annalex]

If at some point you become interested in finding out why the Protestant belief system is fraudulent, send me a note.

[T Minus Four]

You can count on that not happening. I’m a cradle Catholic, and I reject it with all my heart. I renounce it.

[GonzoII]

"Are Catholics Supposed to Abstain from Meat Every Friday?."

Thanks for that link.

[annalex]

Your “heart” is not the topic here.

[T Minus Four]

The Catholic Church is all about power, politics and money and is led by a den of vipers. It’s caught in a web of lies so deep, so wide, and so rooted, that they will never untangle themselves.

They were doing pretty good when people couldn’t read the Word for themselves. But it’s going to come unraveled soon.

I used to drink the Kool-aid, but I knew deep in my soul that it wasn’t true, and that I could never be good enough to save myself. I realized the futility of the endless Pharaseen requirements of rituals, memorized chanting, foolish gestures and empty rules never saved anyone.

I have thrown myself at the feet of Jesus (not a statue of Him) and given him my heart. Yes, annalex, my heart, which it is all about. It’s all for Him now, not for me. I trust Him and I awake every day full of joy and peace.

I wish I could tell you, my friend, how good it is to be free. Free of trying to do what you cannot do for yourself.

Jesus alone, not Jesus “and”. He is my God and my Saviour. Jesus, aka “The Word”. The Word, aka the bible.

Because of His grace, I am saved. Grace cannot be earned. I have never earned it, and anything I ever did to try was “as filthy rags”. Check your Greek, it reads “menstrual rags”. That’s how nasty my “being good enough to earn grace” was to Jesus.

What I do now I do out of thankfullness. And I can never thank Him enough! Halelujiah!

[annalex]

Anyone who reads the Holy Scripture seriously and in the historical context will become Catholic or Orthodox. What you described is a generic Protestant foolishness combined with ignorance of the teachings of the Catholic Church, which of course includes the Scripture. FR is a good place to learn. Please continue reading Catholic material such as the Radio Replies and feel free to ask questions. Truth will set you free.

[T Minus Four]

I’m already free thanks to Jesus. You are the foolish one my friend. You wear your shackles with pride.

[annalex]

Read more, you’ll do fine. These Radio replies are wonderful. If you have questions, ask.

[T Minus Four]

The radio replies are deceitful. Read the bible.

[annalex]

Point to one deception in the Radio Replies.

I read the Bible, that’s why I am Catholic.

[T Minus Four]

Give me one justification for the vast wealth of the vatican.