Posted on 12/01/2009 9:19:57 PM PST by delacoert
I mentioned the Catholics because some of their beliefs are similar to Mormons; i.e., the Priesthood. Oh, I see, it’s just Mormons - and only Mormons - you detest. Thanks for clearing that up.
Glenn Beck is a Mormon and I doubt he would appreciate seeing some of this garbage. Everyone knows he is a very fine conservative, brilliant young man, a hero to many.
Earlier in this (or another thread, I don't remember) you cited Boyd Packer. Given your response above I wish to ask a couple more questions- first he wrote:
"There once was a man who.…incurred a great debt.…the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.… The debtor had a friend. He came to help.…He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer. ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’…And so the creditor agreed. The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.’ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible.” —Gospel Principles, 1992ed, pp. 75, 77
Here he is writing that you are under a sin-debt to Jesus and it is now up to you to repay Jesus by complying with the “laws and ordinances” of the gospel. I believe he is referencing this as well:
“…for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” —2 Nephi 25:23
My first question is - If you win a lottery for a free, brand new car, but in order to get the car you have to pay the sticker price of $32,000 - is that car really free?
My second question is much like the first - if you have to pay off this sin-debt to Jesus in order to receive his free gift of grace - is that grace sill a free gift or is grace still even grace?
Putting words in my head?
Do you guys like to pick on Catholics, too, or is it just us Mormons?
To which SOME do you refer?
Oh, for goodness’ sake. Faith without works is dead. It never did make sense to me when I was a Baptist that you can “get saved” and then sin all you want and still expect to make it to Heaven right along side St. Paul. Come on, people!!!!!
It is by grace we are saved. No, we can’t work our way into Heaven. Heavenly Father’s plan of salvation is the key. Those who thumb their nose at such a wonderful plan - well, there are consequences. This life is a test.
I don’t know why this is controversial.
Glenn Beck and I are Mormons - not to mention over 13 million others around the globe. Deal with it.
Come on SD, that is not the question I put forth to you. Is free grace really free?
Your reply does put forth another question - which comes first faith or works?
It never did make sense to me when I was a Baptist that you can “get saved” and then sin all you want and still expect to make it to Heaven right along side St. Paul. Come on, people!!!!!
I would question your understanding of what they were teaching. Paul makes it very clear that such an attitude is indicative that the person isn't saved to begin with. But that said, mormonism requires you to be perfect doesn't it SD - I've shown you the verses from mormons and the bom to that point already and you are silent to them.
It is by grace we are saved. No, we can’t work our way into Heaven.
Then you are saying the bible lies - “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any many should boast.”—Ephesians 2:8-9
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” —Romans 11:6
This is not my opinion SD, it is what the Word of God says. It makes me wonder why you so studiously avoided my simplest of questions. Let me rephrase it more in line with the season - You wrap up a gift - a very expensive watch - for someone special because of your love for them. Christmas morning comes and you hand the present to them but tell them that they cannot open it until they pay you for it. Is what you gave them a gift? If so - why?
Heavenly Father’s plan of salvation is the key.
Interesting, one moment you say you cannot work your way to heavenly father's presence, now you turn around and say you must have works to get into the presence of heavenly father. This is quite confusing. Add to it that you have to expect a man to call you up through the veil - do you have that guarantee SD? So your salvation (being with heavenly father) requires you to do all you can do (perfection in this life) AND a male to call you through to become one of his wives.
Heavenly father's plan requires works BEFORE grace. As Paul says, such 'grace' is no longer grace. Heavenly father has already declared how he views our works of righteousness SD, he calls them 'filthy rags' or closer to the Hebrew used, menstrual cloths. So either you are confused about heavenly father's plan or heavenly father is - which is it?
Packer also teaches that the discontinueness of sin must be permanent and as your scriptures teach, one sin brings every sin in your past back onto the books (D&C 82:7). So please, how do you become completely sinless in this life and thus meet the requirements for receiving this 'grace'?
Glenn Beck and I are Mormons - not to mention over 13 million others around the globe. Deal with it
Yes (if there are really 13 million ACTIVE mormons in existance), and millions of mormons are disinchanted with the impossible perfection demanded by the mormon heavenly father. They, just like you, need to know that the real Heavenly Father has put forth a plan by which He did all the work and we need to accept that and not add anything on our own in order to receive it.
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