Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Heliand
The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants are saved, or that Protestantism is the way of salvation. Quite the opposite, and very vocally.

This is quite false. Why don't you let real Catholics explain Catholic teaching? I find it rather patronizing when people tell me I believe something I don't, although I have probably read more Catholic theology than 99% of Protestant ministers, to say nothing of Protestant laymen.

The bottom line is, you are judged on the response to the graces and helps to salvation you are given, and your response to those graces and helps. The Gospels state that clearly in a couple of places.

If you are given the grace to understand that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ as the instrument of man's salvation, and that unity with her is directly willed by God ... but you choose to go to First Baptist because you like the choir there more, and besides, you can chat with Aunt Betsy after the service on Sundays, that is a grave sin which can send you to hell. (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, if you want to look it up. The teaching has a pedigree back to Augustine and even farther.)

If you aren't given that grace, or if factors beyond your control make it impossible for you to respond to it, your subjective culpability is lessened. It may be lessened to zero.

The Catholic Church dogmatically, infallibly says that canonized saints are in heaven. It has never dogmatically, or even authoritatively taught than any human being is in hell. Not Luther, not Calvin, not Thomas Jefferson, not Ted Bundy ... there is, I admit, some debate about Judas Iscariot.

Since we don't know that they're in hell, they could be in purgatory on their way to heaven, or already there. So it's absolutely the case that some Protestants could be saved, or many, or all.

391 posted on 12/08/2009 10:25:54 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 377 | View Replies ]


To: Campion
If you are given the grace to understand that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ as the instrument of man's salvation, and that unity with her is directly willed by God

Why do you suppose Mary would withhold that Grace from so many millions of Protestants??? You nor I can find anything that remotely resembles that statement in the scriptures so one has to rely on the tradition of your religion for that truth...Why hasn't Mary give me that grace???

410 posted on 12/08/2009 10:41:51 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 391 | View Replies ]

To: Campion
The bottom line is, you are judged on the response to the graces and helps to salvation you are given, and your response to those graces and helps. The Gospels state that clearly in a couple of places.

No, the Gospels state quite plainly that men will be judged "according to their works". St. Matthew 25.31-46, St. John 5.29, etc.

If you are given the grace to understand that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ as the instrument of man's salvation, and that unity with her is directly willed by God

You seem to be strongly implying that God does not give the grace of understanding to all men, such that should they pursue it, they would be enlightened by God with the truths of the faith necessary for salvation. This seems very contradictory to 1 Timothy 2.4. Don't you believe that all men are given grace that should they respond, they would gain the necessary understanding and faith?

If you aren't given that grace, or if factors beyond your control make it impossible for you to respond to it, your subjective culpability is lessened.

Why wouldn't you be given such a grace? You are claiming God withholds the grace of understanding from some. That's quite a position out there on a very long limb.

What factors could possibly play into the idea that it is imposisble for you to respond in act to the revelation of Jesus Christ (other than perhaps infancy and imbecility)?

The Catholic Church dogmatically, infallibly says that canonized saints are in heaven. It has never dogmatically, or even authoritatively taught than any human being is in hell. Not Luther, not Calvin, not Thomas Jefferson, not Ted Bundy ... there is, I admit, some debate about Judas Iscariot.

Judas is not merely mentioned as damned in Scripture, but also in the Liturgy of Holy Thursday and Good Friday in the collect of the Tridentine Roman Rite. Mohammad is spoken of in the Roman Martyrology as being damned. Scripture of course has the story of Core and his followers being damned visibly in front of the people in Numbers 16.

Since we don't know that they're in hell, they could be in purgatory on their way to heaven, or already there. So it's absolutely the case that some Protestants could be saved, or many, or all.

Its quite impossible that "many, or all" Protestants are saved. At least not without contradicting Scripture and the Magisterium. But it is this laxidasical attitude among Catholics and the wild assumptions about the salvific powers of heresy, unbelief, and pagan idolatry, that allows them to sit back and assume that everyone is on the right road no matter what religion they are in, and to ignore the need to go out and evangelize non-Catholics by example and word.

It is Catholics like this who are represented by the worthless servant who took his talent (the grace of faith) and buried it in the ground (hid it from the view of other men and refused to share it with them) (St. Matthew 25.14-30).

739 posted on 12/10/2009 12:45:31 PM PST by Heliand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 391 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson