Posted on 12/30/2009 7:21:25 AM PST by NYer
“Factually stating that the Jews killed Jesus (himself a Jew, as are all of the authors of the New Testament minus Luke) is not allowed? “
It’s certainly allowed, if not true, but it has led to a lot of oppression of Jews after Constantine the Great converted.
I know that, and believe me — I weep for what people have done under the banner of Christ for political or nationalistic aims. Using groups of people as scapegoats for political reasons (especially the Jews!!!) is nothing new. So be that as it may.
But let me assure you there is nothing in the New Testament that allows for the persecution of the Jews (which is the crux of the discussion between you and I). Read the following from Romans 9 and tell me if this is the sort of sentiment that should make us want to persecute Jews or to gently preach to them?
“2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.”
Nothing but glory for the Jews from whom we get the Word of God and the Son of God whom we worship, Himself a descendant of King David and born of a Jewish Mother.
It was the prevailing ideology for most of two millennia, during most of which time, Jews lived better under Islamic rulers.
I am not talking about how Christ’s teachings were disregarded, but what the actual teachings of the New Testament are. In particular, I am rejecting the following statement that you made earlier:
“If Christians have really gone back to Christ’s teachings, then they have skipped back to before the scriptures were written.”
I reject that statement, as it makes it appear as if the teachings of Christ and the New Testament are anti-Jewish. Which is not true considering that it was Jews of the Jewish sect then called “The Way” who wrote all but two books in the New Testament (Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles).
As for Islam — at one point it had a golden era, you are right. They contributed richly to the world. However, at the root the teachings of Mohammad and Christ are vastly different. Just look at a few of the quotes from the Koran in the thread above and try to find their equivalent in the New Testament. You won’t find them.
Don’t the scriptures say that the Jews killed Jesus?
The difference between Islam and Christianity is clear. Christians will forgive. Muslims will kill.
Killing is the nature of their religion. You see the first example played out today in Islamic countries. Somali adulterer stoned to death
The example of Mohamed on forgivness Sahih Muslim, Book 17: 4206
There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.
The example of Jesus on forgivness (John 8:1-11)
But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."
Well, Jews also believe in forgiving, after paying any damages. It is a Jewish tradition that if one asks forgiveness of you three times, and you do not forgive, it is as if you committed the transgression itself.
So, if you ask forgiveness of me, I will forgive you for accusing us of killing Jesus.
Yes, it does. What do you want them to say? It simply states that the Jewish authorities (The Jews) plotted to kill Jesus. Big deal, it’s a fact. And all of the Apostles were Jews!
It also calls Jesus “King of the Jews” and says that there is no longer Jew or Gentile in Christ. It also speaks of the Jewish race in glowing terms as I pointed out.
The Jews DID kill Jesus who was a fellow Jew. And the Romans persecuted the early Christians. All of this is laid out in the book of Acts and Paul’s writings. They didn’t throw Christians to lions for no reason.
The Jews of the time of the Apostles persecuted the early church and the Jewish church. Stephen was stoned by a group of Jews. But as Stephen was being stoned, he begged God to forgive those who did such a thing towards him. He didn’t beg God to smite the Jewish people. Neither did Jesus, in His famous words of “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”.
What you are doing is taking what people use as a convenient excuse for bloodshed (the Jews killed Jesus) and disregard what the New Testament actually says about behavior and theology. If the New Testament wasn’t decent towards Jews it would have been written by the most self-loathing individuals in history.
No one accuses you of killing Jesus. The Jewish religious leaders did. Jesus asked God to forgive those who killed Him. We are called to do no less.
It was so easy to get you to say the things that got millions of us killed over the past two millenia.
Wow. Guess those of us who study these words are plotting to kill you every Sunday. Who knew?
It’s been done. right now, the people who are plotting to kill Jews are Islamic. In the past it’s been Christians. who knows what the future holds if the socialists succeed in bringing America to its knees.
The Scriptures are not anti-Jewish, except that they say that the Jewish Nation was wrong in rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and not acknowledging his Lordship over all nations. In “Romans” Chapter 11, Paul predicts their conversion.
The Scriptures are not anti-Jewish, except that they say that the Jewish Nation was wrong in rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and not acknowledging his Lordship over all nations. In “Romans” Chapter 11, Paul predicts their conversion.
They accused us of killing him, wrongly, I might add.
Western myth.
And now, a jihadist in the White House.
God help us.
Ibn Waraq said it best— “There may be moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam.”
Islam is Islam. It’s evil. However, the degree of seriousness to which Muslims take their faith varies, as it does in any religion. Iranians, for example, are nominally “Muslim” yet they hate the regime’s guts, drink alcohol, and are generally more secular and pro-Western.
Also, the Koran is written in Classical Arabic which is no longer spoken today. It’s quite different from Standard Arabic and further still from all the dialects. And 80% of the Muslim world doesn’t even speak Arabic. They memorize the Koran in a dead language and have no idea what it actually says.
Mr. Pipes is incorrect. We have literally hundreds of solutions. Some of them are in the megaton yield range.
I suggest we use them immediately.
L
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