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LDS writer tackles little-known Book of Mormon character
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Jan. 29, 2010 | JaNae Francis

Posted on 01/30/2010 6:44:25 PM PST by Colofornian

KAYSVILLE -- A first novel for K.C. Grant, 39, has landed this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints author success in just a few weeks since its release.

"Abish: Daughter of God" (Covenant, $16.95) already has scored a ranking in the top six for books sold at Deseret Book and Grant said a few Deseret Book stores already have sold out of her novel.

"It's fun to have a first novel so well received," said the Kaysville homemaker. "It gives me an inspiration to keep on writing."

Grant enjoyed a successful book signing last weekend in Centerville and has another scheduled for today from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. at Seagull Book in Layton at 448 W. Antelope Drive.

The novel is a mixture of fiction and fact, based on a short account of a woman in Alma, Chapter 19 who did not faint when others were overcome by the Holy Spirit because she had been converted to gospel teachings earlier in her life.

"I think like a lot of LDS people who read the Book of Mormon," Grant said. "Abish is one of only three women mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon and yet there is very little said about her. I wanted to know more about her and possibly other people would too."

(Excerpt) Read more at standard.net ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; bookofmormon; christian; lds; mormon; women
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From the article: The novel is a mixture of fiction and fact, based on a short account of a woman in Alma, Chapter 19...

Well, just about ALL novel...the Book of Mormon doesn't really know how to describe women in any detail! And, as for a book in the Book of Mormon named Alma, well "Alma" in Hebrew means "virgin"...so why would the book of Alma be about a man named Alma if Hebrew-speaking people referenced such as young girls/teens?

From the article: "Abish is one of only three women mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon and yet there is very little said about her."

Book of Mormon Jeopardy on Women

Time to hit the Jeopardy category of “Women in the Book of Mormon.” (For those who don't know "Jeopardy," the answer comes first)
Answer: 2%
Question: What % of the 250 or so characters in the Book of Mormon are female?

Answer: Once
Question: How many times are “sisters” even referenced in the Book of Mormon? [The only reference I've found is 2 Nephi 5:6 – and even then
these sisters of Nephi are unnumbered & unnamed]

Answer: Sarai
Question: Who's the only wife mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Answer: Abish
Question: Who's the only daughter mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Answer: Don't Exist
Question: Who are the sisters mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Now that we know the BoM marginalizes women, how can we tell if it trivializes women, too?

(1) Leading off the lineup of Mormon women, we have the unnamed daughter of Jared (Ether 8:8-12). What goes through her brain? Why she wants to dance before a man so that she'll seduce him into marrying him; then this household can properly commit patricide. Nice.

(2) There's an unnamed Lamanite queen in Alma 47:35. She's easy to defraud.

(3) There's another unnamed Lamanite queen in Alma 22:19-24. Let's see. This queen sees Aaron & servants @ foot of a dead king's bed. She jumps to wrongful conclusions. Then in all her decisiveness, she's going to massacre them for guilt-by-association. Then she started to back down from her heavy-handed executive authority. Why? Not because of justice, but because of fear – her servants were fearful. So she was, too (v. 21). Aaron, seeing that this woman was no match for kingdom authority, elected, instead to do the “easy thing.” And what was the easy thing in comparison to trying to deal with this queen? Why, he raised the king back from the dead (vv. 22-23).

(4) And since the book of Alma in the Book of Mormon seems to carry the predominant mention of women on behalf of the entire book, how do the earlier chapters introduce such women?
Here, read it yourself:
“And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and
[“and” = covering things you haven't yet covered...so what you seen the next line applies to what follows -- not what was preceding]
and all that you POSSESS, your women and your children,
according to your faith and good works,
from this time forth AND FOREVER
And thus I have spoken. Amen. (Alma 7:27)

(Well, last time I looked, forever meant forever)

Other than that, when women are mentioned in the Book of Mormon, they are good for toiling, spinning, working (Mosiah 10:5; Hel. 6:13) and having kids (1 Nephi 17:1), which the prestigious clans of the Book of Mormon were good at having by gobs of millions...supposedly.

And even when we get to the grandest of stories about women yanked out of the Bible, even Joseph can't get it quite exact. He references an unnamed virgin in 1 Nephi 11:18 -- who Smith identified as "the mother of God." Now the RC among us might say, "So?"

Well, the Book of Mormon "editors"...
...those who made almost 4,000 changes from the original Book of Mormon...
...(who'd have thunk that "the most correct book on earth" according to the Mormon angel would have need "editors"?)...
...then inserted the words "the Son of" into the text. Hmm. Those words -- were they there in the original gold inscribed text? Why did they add them? Why isn't there at least a footnote at the bottom of the Book of Mormon page saying, "Hey, we kind of added to the text here. Just wanted to let ya know."

1 posted on 01/30/2010 6:44:25 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

A work of fiction based upon a work of fiction.

Does that make it ‘fan fiction’?


2 posted on 01/30/2010 6:58:48 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: Colofornian

From the article: The novel is a mixture of fiction and fact, based on a short account of a woman in Alma, Chapter 19

- - - - - -
No, it is pure fiction based upon a FICTIONAL account.

I wonder if the day will ever come when the LDS finally throw out the Book of Mormon.


3 posted on 01/30/2010 7:01:38 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: Colofornian
"Abish is one of only three women mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon and yet there is very little said about her. I wanted to know more about her and possibly other people would too."

So let me get this straight. Hardly anything is written about this "Abish", so in order to get to know more about her, you write a piece of fiction to get to know her?

The spin used in the lds to legitimize that which can't just defies imagination.

SZ

4 posted on 01/30/2010 7:04:28 PM PST by SZonian (I see people everywhere who claim they are victims of "hatred".)
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To: Colofornian

Wow, I never knew this. The more I learn about this counterfeit Christian cult, the more amazed I am that they manage to fly under the radar. If I read this travesty of a book, I’d feel a burning alright, and it wouldn’t be in my bosom.


5 posted on 01/30/2010 7:16:42 PM PST by T Minus Four (Help Haiti and know your money is going to the right people - www.WorldVision.org)
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To: Colofornian

There must be a more positive way to spend your time. Try showing the good things that the Mormons are doing for a change.

Your constant and predictable bashing of the LDS faith is getting very boring.

Great site if you want to learn more about Mormon history:

http://www.deseretbooks.com

Also, see here how the evil Mormons have donated 225,000 lbs. of food, medical supplies, doctors and tents etc.

http://heraldextra.com/news/local/article_a9b9a180-be84-5bb7-8ed6-f9a8c5fed3cd.html


6 posted on 01/30/2010 7:17:33 PM PST by panaxanax (It's time for TEA Party Patriots to get an 'ATTITUDE'.)
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To: panaxanax

Yahwohl Mein Herr!!!

I vill read ze lds propaganda as you order! Ze productivity of the collective vill increase as you demand!

NOT!

They have many positive outcomes from posting this material and much like it. It exposes the lies, hypocrisy, manipulation and outright falseness of this so called religion.

It’s long overdue in my opinion, that this type of material is presented for all the world to see so that INFORMED decisions can be made about joining or avoiding. Do you have a problem with folks being informed?

SZ


7 posted on 01/30/2010 7:24:42 PM PST by SZonian (I see people who claim they are victims of "hatred" and say we should be more "productive".)
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To: panaxanax; reaganaut
There must be a more positive way to spend your time. Try showing the good things that the Mormons are doing for a change.

(You mean, besides ignoring women in a fictional work based upon a fictional work?)

Tell us why women are so prominent in the Bible -- by name -- and yet they're AWOL in the BoM?

How do Lds contemporary women find role models in the BoM?

8 posted on 01/30/2010 7:26:54 PM PST by Colofornian (As the Lds once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: panaxanax

Thank you for bumping this thread pan.
mormon donations are a drop in the bucket for a multibillion dollar corporation.
Feel free to bump this thread any time again.


9 posted on 01/30/2010 7:28:37 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: SZonian; T Minus Four

T Minus Four tagline: (Help Haiti and know your money is going to the right people - www.WorldVision.org)

>>”Do you have a problem with folks being informed?”<<

No I don’t. That’s why I strongly suggest you both read the article below about the World Vision food aid scam here.

http://www.alertnet.org/db/an_art/58388/2009/05/10-194457-1.htm


10 posted on 01/30/2010 7:30:26 PM PST by panaxanax (It's time for TEA Party Patriots to get an 'ATTITUDE'.)
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To: panaxanax

What good is being “nice” if it doesn’t get you where you want to be in the end? LDS, although very “good” people are on a fast train to nowhere and are taking more and more people with them all the time.

Why should we ignore the lies and filth of wrong doctrine just because y’all are nice neighbors and friendly coworkers?


11 posted on 01/30/2010 7:30:54 PM PST by T Minus Four (Help Haiti and know your money is going to the right people - www.WorldVision.org)
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To: Godzilla

bump


12 posted on 01/30/2010 7:32:41 PM PST by panaxanax (It's time for TEA Party Patriots to get an 'ATTITUDE'.)
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To: panaxanax

Why pan, so nice of you to continue to bump this thread. Since you are making yourself a fixture here, why not comment on mormon sexism.


13 posted on 01/30/2010 7:33:27 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: panaxanax

Wow, that is very disturbing. I thank you for bringing it to my attention. Later when I have more time I will investigate more thoroughly - we sponsor a child thru them.

Meanwhile, the BoM is full of claptrap and lies.


14 posted on 01/30/2010 7:34:00 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: panaxanax

I hear Hitler was kind to children and kittens.


15 posted on 01/30/2010 7:36:13 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: T Minus Four

>>”What good is being “nice” if it doesn’t get you where you want to be in the end?”<<

It’s called self-satisfaction.

If it is true (as you indicated) that you have “nice” LDS neighbors and co-workers then you have to admit that Mormons are the first to offer help and the last to ask for it.

>>”Why should we ignore the lies and filth of wrong doctrine...”<<

Why should you worry so much about what other people believe in? Just ignore them and maybe you can lessen your grief.


16 posted on 01/30/2010 7:44:38 PM PST by panaxanax (It's time for TEA Party Patriots to get an 'ATTITUDE'.)
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To: T Minus Four; panaxanax

My, someone steals from an organization and the whole is corrupt - not hardly. here is the rest of the story -

http://www.worldvision.org/content.nsf/about/20090604-liberia

Seems the implemented cross checks go above and beyond.

perhaps this means lds llc is corrupt too

http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_12111179?source=commented


17 posted on 01/30/2010 7:45:46 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: SZonian
Hardly anything is written about this "Abish", so in order to get to know more about her, you write a piece of fiction to get to know her?

That boggled my brain too. Speaking of RC's and fiction about made up characters, it reminds me of my "favorite" RC saint, Saint Veronica. She is a legend based on the unnamed woman in the gospel who wiped the face of Jesus as he was carrying the cross. The legend grew over the years that the impresion of his face was imprinted on the cloth and it had magic powers to heal people. The word for the impression in whatever language was "veronica" and that slowly evolved in the retelling over the years into her name. She is actually prayed to and is the patron saint of - get this - photographers and laundresses! "She" is supposed to be able to intercede to God to those who pray to her.


18 posted on 01/30/2010 7:47:36 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: panaxanax; T Minus Four
Why should you worry so much about what other people believe in? Just ignore them and maybe you can lessen your grief.

lds llc is pulling its 60,000 missionaries off of the street and accepting that mormonism is not Christian?

19 posted on 01/30/2010 7:47:56 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: panaxanax
It’s called self-satisfaction.

Well, it won't be very satisfying to stand in judgement before the Lord GOD Jesus and try to defend yourself because you did nice things.

20 posted on 01/30/2010 7:50:17 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: panaxanax
Why should you worry so much about what other people believe in?

Well, if you were a follower of Christ, you would know the answer to that.

21 posted on 01/30/2010 7:58:29 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: T Minus Four

I’m curious if one of the general authorities is going to have a talk regarding Abish during the next general conference? Or better yet, maybe they can have their token relief society leader give one of the saturday talks that nobody watches.

I never understood the RC penchant for saints and icons. I grew up in Panama and the opulence of the churches there whilst the peasants (campesinos) lived in abject poverty really disturbed me. They seemed content, I guess as a result of growing up RC.

I couldn’t stand watching the priest in his gilded robes and nice clothing surrounded by gold gilded statues and icons encourage them to give more. They wore sandals that were cut out of rawhide with leather thongs to hold them on their feet. Most couldn’t afford a simple pair of shoes. Yet, what they could afford to give didn’t appear to be enough.

This is what symbolizes organized religion to me. Asking (telling) the members to contribute even more when they obviously can’t afford to, or face judgement for withholding from God.

SZ


22 posted on 01/30/2010 7:59:52 PM PST by SZonian (I see people who claim they are victims of "hatred" and say we should be more "productive".)
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To: Godzilla

Thanks G.


23 posted on 01/30/2010 8:01:48 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: panaxanax
Seeing as how LDS Inc. is above all else a self serving money machine with an ample PR budget I thin we can eave the cheer leading and bait and switch tactics to them.
24 posted on 01/30/2010 8:03:18 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Colofornian

Interesting thread...

The mormons do a lot of genealogy so that they can get lists of people real or imagined to dead dunk...

I recently found some of my ancestors in a website authored by the mormons..

The family had come to America...

The wife was noted as having “come in the John Brown emigration”

(also called a “Great Migration” even though it was the mid 1600s)

However the lady was MISSUS BROWN married to MISTER JOHN BROWN..

Why was a seperate note necessary ???

In all my years of research I had never seen it put that way before...

Why not put John and Susie Brown arrived in Beverwyck from Amsterdam in 1659 ???

Only the men emigrated ???

The women came along as baggage ???

I though it was telling...


25 posted on 01/30/2010 8:05:27 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: SZonian

Me too. I can’t imagine anyone on the face of the planet who lives in more opulence than the Pope. Oh, the defenders will screech that it doesn’t belong to him personally, but please. It may be the biggest palace in the world. He dresses in gold-encrusted garments, headpieces and robes, and he wears designer Italian shoes. Imagine the staff of servants and security.

People have to bow to him, call him fancy titles, and kiss his ring, or is it his foot.

Just like Jesus, I always say.


26 posted on 01/30/2010 8:08:09 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: Colofornian

(2) There’s an unnamed Lamanite queen in Alma 47:35. She’s easy to defraud.
________________________________________________

Sheba in the Bible wasnt..

She heard about Solomon and came to check the stories out for herself...


27 posted on 01/30/2010 8:08:52 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Godzilla
Attack Christianity.

LDS SOP

Lather, Rinse, repeat...

Odd for an organization that is one large scam.

Ok, not really.

Odd I mean.

28 posted on 01/30/2010 8:10:59 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Colofornian

I wonder how they would deal with Deborah...

She lead and judged the Hebrews in her day...

HEY

She was the PROPHET and PRESIDENT...

Oh noes...


29 posted on 01/30/2010 8:11:12 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: panaxanax
Why should you worry so much about what other people believe in? Just ignore them and maybe you can lessen your grief.

Obviously you know little about true Christianity be you LDS or not.

30 posted on 01/30/2010 8:13:59 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Colofornian

When you write fiction about another fiction book, is it fiction?

If it is the Book of mormonites, yes!


31 posted on 01/30/2010 8:14:30 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: reaganaut

Another Mormon post! Yawn!


32 posted on 01/30/2010 8:17:50 PM PST by Doctor Don
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

LOL!

Two negatives equalling a positive?

Or is it like multiplying a negative with a positive to equal a negative?

I don’t know anymore, the lds spin on things has my head spinning.

SZ


33 posted on 01/30/2010 8:20:23 PM PST by SZonian (I see people who claim they are victims of "hatred" and say we should be more "productive".)
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To: Doctor Don

Well, since the mormons won’t post ‘em, these fine folks will.

Sounds like you need to take a nap or go to bed instead of frequenting threads you aren’t interested in.


34 posted on 01/30/2010 8:21:47 PM PST by SZonian (I see people who claim they are victims of "hatred" and say we should be more "productive".)
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To: Colofornian

And then there’s that man that Heber C. Kimball was named for ...

yeah Heber is in the Bible....

Heber C. Kimball had lots of “wives” and he treated them like cows and kept them corralled and in line...

He was a good mormon guy..

Now let’s look at that “out-of-control” wife of the Biblical Heber...

Her name was Jael...and she was no book of mormon wife..

No sirree not her...

She tricked Sisera into coming into her husband’s tent...

and gave him food, water, a bed to sleep in...

and a nail in his head with her little hammer...

Oh noes...

And God had planned it that way...

Oh noes...

And God told Deborah that Sisera was gonna get his...

And Deborah PROPHECISED to the Hebrews that God was going to do it ...

Oh, noes..


35 posted on 01/30/2010 8:30:35 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Doctor Don

See you after your nap?


36 posted on 01/30/2010 8:53:42 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: Godzilla; panaxanax; T Minus Four
Why should you worry so much about what other people believe in? Just ignore them and maybe you can lessen your grief. [Panaxanax]

lds llc is pulling its 60,000 missionaries off of the street and accepting that mormonism is not Christian? [Godzilla]

You know, Pan-Axe, Former FReeper Dangas concisely answered a similar query to him a while back:

Inasmuch as vast numbers of Christians are reached by Mormons,
and the disaffection rates among Mormons are very high,
and that such disaffected Mormons never return to the Christian churches,
and that Mormon recruiters conceal the “difficult doctrines” from converts until their apostasy from Christanity is complete,
and that Mormons insist on social isolation from support groups, such as family and former church associates,
it seems urgent to warn Christians that Mormons are not the Christians they pretend to be.

(I tried putting Dangas into the "to" box but message came back indicating they couldn't find anyone named Dangas any more...So, Dangas, if you're lurking somewhere...Thank you for this cogent/concise on-the-mark descriptor of the realities of what's entangled here...and to the rest of you, may I suggest you cut & paste it & reserve it for repetition when some FReepers have a memory lapse or yet-to-undergo realization of what's at stake.)

37 posted on 01/30/2010 8:55:26 PM PST by Colofornian (As the Lds once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: Tennessee Nana
My favorite woman in the bible is Abigail. Her story is told in 1 Samuel 25. She was married to a rich man, Nabal, who was a flaming jerk and almost got his whole household wiped out by insulting David. David led 400 men to kill Nabal and his whole houehold, but Abigail raced to meet them with gifts. She apologized for her pathetic husband and appeased David's anger. She knew he was of the Lord. Here's what David told her:

"32 And David said to Abigail, “Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me! 33 Blessed be your discretion, and blessed be you, who have kept me this day from bloodguilt and from avenging myself with my own hand! 34 For as surely as the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, who has restrained me from hurting you, unless you had hurried and come to meet me, truly by morning there had not been left to Nabal so much as one male.” 35 Then David received from her hand what she had brought him. And he said to her, “Go up in peace to your house. See, I have obeyed your voice, and I have granted your petition.”

Abigail went home and found her husband drunk. He died ten days later and David took her as his wife.

She rocked.

38 posted on 01/30/2010 9:04:53 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: T Minus Four; Tennessee Nana
I forgot to add:

Abigail...oh noes!

39 posted on 01/30/2010 9:06:35 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: SZonian; Colofornian

Hardly anything is written about this “Abish”, so in order to get to know more about her, you write a piece of fiction to get to know her?

- - - - - - -
Yep. Sad thing is, there are probably going to be many LDS who take this novel to be ‘gospel truth’, along the lines that some others did with “The DaVinci Code”.


40 posted on 01/30/2010 9:30:09 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: panaxanax; SZonian; Colofornian; Godzilla; T Minus Four; Vendome; ejonesie22

First, there is NO more positive way to spend my time than to tell others about what the LDS really teach/believe, my experiences in and the mistake I made in joining the LDS church, and the joy in Christ I found after leaving the LDS church.

It is my prayer that my posts will keep others for falling for their lies.

Second, HOW, HOW, is posting articles from the LDS church own publications “bashing”?? Please explain THAT logic.

Third, your shameless pimping of the LDS owned ‘deseret books’ and PR for the so called ‘charity’ of the LDS church is just sad.

Yeah, they took stuff to Haiti, but so did many other groups and churches and most of them didn’t have a RUNNING PR campaign about it. Typical SOP, anything to make “the church” look good.


41 posted on 01/30/2010 9:52:14 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: panaxanax

Doing good won’t get you back into the presence of God, only accepting the fact that Jesus’ shed innocent blood on the CROSS (not the garden) to pay for your sins will.

Faith in the Jesus of the Bible, not works, saves.


42 posted on 01/30/2010 9:56:55 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: T Minus Four; panaxanax

Meanwhile, the BoM is full of claptrap and lies.

- - - - - -
Except of course the chapters that Joseph Smith plagiarized verbatim from the Bible.

The idea that the book of mormon is ‘scripture’ is just a sad joke.


43 posted on 01/30/2010 9:59:10 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: panaxanax

You do realize you are posting to former LDS?

I am not but have more than 100 friends who are and I care for one who is 99 1/2. I think she came across the plains with Brigham Young(just kidding).

Mormons do a lot of great things as do many other “Christians” and their churches. We just don’t have a PR company to help us look good or make it look as if we are in parity with the m oslems.


45 posted on 01/30/2010 10:01:03 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: T Minus Four; SZonian

Didn’t they dump Veronica about the same time they demoted St. Christopher?


46 posted on 01/30/2010 10:02:15 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: reaganaut

Redundant!

LOL


47 posted on 01/30/2010 10:02:18 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: panaxanax; SZonian; Colofornian; Godzilla; T Minus Four; Vendome; ejonesie22

First, there is NO more positive way to spend my time than to tell others about what the LDS really teach/believe, my experiences in and the mistake I made in joining the LDS church, and the joy in Christ I found after leaving the LDS church.

It is my prayer that my posts will keep others for falling for their lies.

Second, HOW, HOW, is posting articles from the LDS church own publications “bashing”?? Please explain THAT logic.

Third, your shameless pimping of the LDS owned ‘deseret books’ and PR for the so called ‘charity’ of the LDS church is just sad.

Yeah, they took stuff to Haiti, but so did many other groups and churches and most of them didn’t have a RUNNING PR campaign about it. Typical SOP, anything to make “the church” look good.


48 posted on 01/30/2010 10:07:12 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: reaganaut

It was worth repeating :-)


49 posted on 01/30/2010 10:12:41 PM PST by T Minus Four
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To: reaganaut

Oh who knows. The Catholic Church itself doen’t even know how many minor gods, I mean saints, it “venerates”.


50 posted on 01/30/2010 10:23:02 PM PST by T Minus Four
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