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To: stfassisi

And if you agree with that statement, you agree with Calvinism.


117 posted on 02/23/2010 7:03:27 PM PST by irishtenor (Beer. God's way of making sure the Irish don't take over the world.)
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To: irishtenor
And if you agree with that statement, you agree with Calvinism.

The key word is we agree upon is we can't reach perfection ,we can choose goodness over evil though

119 posted on 02/23/2010 7:12:13 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: irishtenor

This is very accurate from Scripturecatholic .com

Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity was his own invention; it was never taught by the Church or any early Church father for 1,500 years prior to Calvin coming on the scene. Calvin based “total depravity” on verses such as Eph 2:1,5 and Col 2:13 where Paul refers to us as “dead in our trespasses.” But in these verses, Paul was teaching about our condition prior to baptism (cf. Col 2:12). Before baptism, we indeed were dead in our trespasses. After baptism, we are no longer dead, but alive in Christ. As St. Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21, baptism now saves us, and as St. Paul describes, this is done by the “washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” which is baptism (Titus 3:5). Man is still encumbered by concupiscence, which is the proclivity to commit sin, and often succumbs to sin, but he is not totally depraved. This is because we have received the grace of filial adoption in Christ through baptism (cf. Titus 3:7).

Calvin argued for total depravity because he did not believe that man had freewill. Thus, he believed that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell. Calvin could simply not reconcile the truth that God’s sovereignty includes human free will. While it is a mystery how God’s sovereignty and our free will interact, the truth is that they do, as the Scriptures teach. But Calvin could not comprehend this, and thus concluded that we are totally depraved, unable to respond to God’s grace, and so God had to predestine some to heaven and others to hell.

Calvin’s teaching makes God a liar. For example, God so often pleaded with Israel to turn away from their sins and repent (cf. Ezek. 18:30; 33:11). But if these people were already predestined to hell, then that would make God’s pleading superfluous. He would be revealing His desire for Israel to repent, knowing all the while that they did not have the ability to do so. This is not the God of the Christian faith, for God cannot lie (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18). When you follow Calvinism to its ultimate end, it makes God the author of sin (since there is no more freewill, but sin exists, God must be its author).

Regarding Rom. 3:23, Paul is saying that all people are subject to original sin, and that we all would have died in that sin had it not been for the new life of Christ which we receive in baptism. Paul is not saying that all people commit sin (as I said, even though infants are subject to original sin, they do not commit sins by their own free will choices; not until they reach the age of reason).

Note also that the Greek word for “all” (pantes) does not mean every single person. For example, the same word is used in 1 Cor. 15:22 where Paul says that just as in Adam “all” have died, so in Christ “all” shall live. But we know that not all people have died (Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven), and we also know that not all people will live because Jesus taught us that some people will choose hell. Note also that in Rom. 5:19 Paul says “many” (polloi) were made sinners. He changes the word from “all” to “many” which underscores that, when Paul says “all,” he means “many.”


128 posted on 02/23/2010 7:28:23 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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