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To: Mr Rogers; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg

Regeneration is simultaneous with it.

Jesus draws: “If I be lifted up, I will draw all humanity unto me.”

When they observe, because they are drawn, some will resist willfully. Others will hear the voice of the shepherd, their own shepherd, they will know Him, and they will follow.

Those who reject are not of His sheep, nor of His sheepfold. They are not children of God, which He could raise up of these stones, but they are “of their father the Devil.”

So, yes, the good seed have been prepared with good soil. Luke 8:15 “But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.”

If “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and if “all our righteousness is as filthy rags” and if “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked”, then how did these get good hearts BEFORE “they heard the word (and) retained it.”?


622 posted on 03/06/2010 10:12:39 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
Regeneration is an act of God by the Holy Spirit. It is given by God to whom He will for His own purpose. Those who are regenerated unto faith in Christ display His mercy. Those who are not regenerated unto faith in Christ display His judgment.

And nothing men can do will determine that regeneration. God determines who will be saved for His own good reasons, not as a reward for anything.

Salvation is unmerited. Grace is unearned. God elects, not on our good works, not even our good work of faith. God elects and therefore men believe. God doesn't elect and therefore men remain in their fallen nature and they don't believe.

And if God has elected someone, that person will believe, by the targeted, effective, purposeful work of the Holy Spirit in them.

All God. Every single bit of everything. "Jesus Christ, by whom all things consist." (Colossians 1)

624 posted on 03/06/2010 10:21:52 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: xzins
how did these get good hearts BEFORE “they heard the word (and) retained it.”?

Men get good hearts in order to hear and know and love the word of God.

And not all men get new hearts. Or new eyes and ears.

625 posted on 03/06/2010 10:24:42 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: xzins

“Regeneration is simultaneous with it.”

I agree. The instant one believes, he is born again, a new creation in Christ.

Not according to Calvinists.

“We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8)...As we will see later in this chapter, Scripture indicates that regeneration must come before we can respond to effective calling with saving faith. Therefore we can say that regeneration comes before the result of effective calling (our faith). But it is more difficult to specify the exact relationship in time between regeneration and the human proclamation of the gospel through which God works in effective calling.” — Wayne Grudem

“This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: “Do I cooperate with God’s grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?” Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation...The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.” — R. C. Sproul

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

Again, the Calvinist uses dead in our sin as the totality of our state before conversion, although scripture provides many other examples that indicate otherwise.

Calvin taught we are totally dead, and thus need to be regenerated to life before any faith or belief is possible. Yet scripture clearly and explicitly teaches otherwise.

“2But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God...”

Those who believe become children of God, they don’t become children and then believe.

“...you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” To come is to receive life, not the other way around.

“40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Once again, eternal life is given to those who believe, not to those on a list of names who then believe.

“these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

By believing you may have life, not you have life that you may believe.

“If “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and if “all our righteousness is as filthy rags” and if “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked”, then how did these get good hearts BEFORE “they heard the word (and) retained it.”?”

Yes, all have sinned. Yes, if God doesn’t reach down to us, we will certainly never reach up to him. But what does Jesus command? “Repent, and believe”. And when some do not, he condemns them for refusing.

We are also described as slaves, lost, and sick, children of an evil father. All of those allow repentance.

So does being ‘dead’:

11And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

17”But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

You can be ‘dead’ to God, yet still repent, when you change your mind. According to Jesus. “”But when he came to himself, he said...”


629 posted on 03/06/2010 10:32:35 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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