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To: daniel1212

This is an ignorance comparison, and supposes that Christian faith rests on just words. It does rest on the Bible, but the reason the Bible became the Bible was ultimately believing its words and its gospel result in life. I was raised devoutly religious (RC) but had no interest in what the Bible said or meant until after i became born again, and then my hunger to know what it meant became nigh insatiable, and this was not because i was in some cult of strong church, much less in the “Bible belt”, but it was really the Lord and me - a truck driver with a radio tuned to the Christian station.”

Well I can tell you without hesitation that I am not ignorant of the bible. I was raised RC too and I learned plenty about the bible. Now this born again experience you are talking about I am somewhat skeptical of. Here’s why. It’s emotions. You feel all emotional inside and you answer the altar call. Or you feel repentance or whatever strong emotion with regard to Jesus.

I don’t trust emotions. They come and go and they are sometimes phony. So many people say, I was a Catholic but then I was born again and I “felt” such peace and now I have a personal relationship with Jesus. Let me say this there is nothing in the NT that says you have to “feel” certain emotions to become Christian. There is nothing that says you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus. This is not to say that Catholics are not emotional in the practice of their faith. Very many are. But you don’t have to be. A very dry faith is perfectly acceptable and sometimes it is even better because you are not needing emotional consolation all the time.

I don’t trust emotions. I trust logic and reason and what makes sense.


40 posted on 02/28/2010 5:27:54 PM PST by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewis)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

I said nothing about emotions being the barometer of reality or the essence of being born again. I do not trust emotions either (and spiritual impressions, though different, also need to be subject to the Bible), yet they are real, thank God (Jesus rejoiced, and wept) and can truly testify of something inside, but they are to be the caboose, not the engine. And being born again is not really about emotions, but about radical changes in heart attitude and spiritual affections that are not caused by group pressure, or will to change, etc., all of which can happen in religion but still are not the realization which souls manifest who truly do humble repent and turn in faith to the Lord Jesus.

My changes were not about emotions, and to relegate being born again to emotions is neither logical or reasonable. When the fire-breathing, Christ-hating Saul was converted, his consequent love for Jesus and Christians was not just emotions. While there are always superficial conversions, which do not last, plenty of verifiable testimonies show a deeper and lasting reality.

As far as being born again, and the Bible not requiring a personal relationship with God/Jesus, both are clearly attested to.

As for personal relationship, not only do the personal prayers from David to Paul indicate more than “saying prayers,” but plenty of verses speak of knowing God, meaning something deeper than head knowledge.

(John 14:16-21) “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; {17} Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. {18} I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. {19} Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. {20} At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. {21} He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

(Gal 4:6,9) “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”

(Romans 8:15-16) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

It was Jesus who spoke of two birthdays, one physical and the others spiritual:

(John 3:6-7) “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. {7} Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”

And that is what happened to the souls who believed in Acts, such as in Acts 2:38 and here in 10:43-47:

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. {44} While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. {45} And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. {46} For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, {47} Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

(Acts 15:8-9) “And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; {9} And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.”

(Eph 1:13) “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

(James 1:18) “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

Catholicism believes that this happens at baptism when you assent to statements of doctrine, but which usually is held to take place by proxy when an infant is baptized. However, an infant cannot obey the commands given in order to be baptized, that of repentance and whole-hearted faith, (Acts 2:2:38; 8:37), and that infants need salvation is debatable, while the only example of proxy faith did not procure salvation for a man who was incapable of believing, though intercession can procure mercy for others.

Instead, as seen above, the Holy Spirit is given to contrite souls who truly repent and believe on Christ to save them by faith (which overall follows Christ). To God be the glory!


51 posted on 02/28/2010 7:56:26 PM PST by daniel1212 ("Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved")
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