Replies

Lets start back at the beginning with this one...

Edward Watson :The players on this forum have repeatedly lied and distorted our true beliefs

Nana: Post # 74 (Lovely list of things that mormons must have decided to believe now...)

EW: Post # 104 (Answering Nana’s list and giving each point a number)

So now Nana will put them together (using the numbers of EW for the lurkers and other interesting parties and will add a comment or two as needed...
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1. Nana:

So mormons now believe in the Trinity ???

1. EW:

Mormons do NOT believe in the traditional description of the Trinity. We believe in the biblical Triad or threeness of the Godhead. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. These three separate and distinct entities are God by nature and share a oneness in a manner that cannot be imagined. We do not believe God is nonmaterial, is Mind, is three hypostates in one ousia (whatever that is). We believe God is a spirit being who dwells in an immortal material body just as we are spirit beings dwelling in mortal bodies.

Nana’s additional comment..

The Trinity...Christians believe, mormons dont...Check...

2. Nana:

And that Jesus is God...the word of God who is eternal from “in the beginning” ???

2. EW:

Mormons believe Jesus is God. The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants explicitly and repeatedly state Jesus is God incarnate, who was the Old Testament YHWH God of the Hebrews, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is the Eternal God.

Nana’s additional comment...

Jesus is God...but Jesus is the Word of God (the Second person of the Trinity) and not God the Father (who is the First Person of the trinity) ...Mormons and Christians have different beliefs right there..(Refer to 1 John 5:7)

3. Nana;

That Jesus shed His blood on the Cross to save us and not in the Garden of Gethsemanee ???

3: EW;;

Mormons believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin and death. We believe his Atonement, that mindless, terrifying substitution sacrifice STARTED in the Garden of Gethsemane. The agony he went through was so intense that he, despite being God, was so great he bled blood. His nature of being God and his nature of being sinless, allowed him to become our substitute. One sinless God is a fair substitute for an infinite number of sinful men. He, despite being the greatest of all, allowed himself the indignity of dying a slave’s death on the cross. He rose from the dead three days later, triumphing over death and now sits at the Father’s right hand.

Nana’s additional comment...

There’s a lot in this one so here we go...

a. EW: Mormons believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin and death.

Too broad a subject. What does that mean to mormons ???

b. We believe his Atonement, that mindless, terrifying substitution sacrifice STARTED in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Yes, mormons do believe this, but its not true. It started and ended on the Cross. And it wasnt mindless. It was a deliberate plan by a brilliant calculating mind. God is not a dummy. He always knows what He is doing. he always has a purpose for what He does. God wasnt terrified. Nothing terrifies God.

c. The agony he went through was so intense that he, despite being God, was so great he bled blood.

Jesus never bled blood in Gethesamane there is no scripture in the Bible that says that. Jesus was not in agony in Gethesemane. Plus he was angry at His disciples because they would not join Him. Hardly a “substitution sacrifice” if He was not alone in what he did. He wasnt God in His form as Spirit that bled on the Cross, He was God come in the flesh that bled on the Cross. He HAD to bleed. It was his shed Blood on the Cross that cleansed us from all sin.

d. His nature of being God and his nature of being sinless, allowed him to become our substitute.

Jesus IS God. God is not tempted like a man so His “sinlessness” is not that of a man’s. When the Word became flesh as Jesus He took on the attributes of man, including the ability to be tempted. However He never gave in to temptation. And when he was tempted by Satan 3 times in the widerness, He rebuked satan every time. However when Satan tempted Joey Smith with the same temptations, joey Smith ran to the sins and took them on and made a religion from them that became known as Mormonism. Mormonism is not Christianity.

Then we come to the temptation in the Garden of gethsemane when Jesus was tempted to change His mind about the Cross because He would be separated from God the Father and he would be in hell for 3 days and His man’s heart had to trust that God would get Him out of there. “For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy one to rot in the grave.” Psalm 16:10 “because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.” Acts 2:26

You try wrestling with that terrible future and see if you dont sweat great drops of WATERY sweat that dropped like blood might drop with the anguish of the thought of separation from God the Father for 3 days. Jesus had never been apart from God the Father Jesus had always been with God the Father as the Word, the Second person of the Trinity (Do you have any understanding why the devil loves to convince people that there is no Trinity ??? Without the Trinity it was not God who hung there on that Cross.)

So Jesus was there in Gethesamane wrestling with the thought of having to trust not that all would go well, but if He could bear that separation from God trapped as he was in His Earth suit. Thats why Jesus understands when we feel that god is not there and reassures us that he will never leave us or forsake us. Because of Jesus sheding His blood on the cross and dying on the cross none of us ever have to be separated from God unless we choose to be by denying Jesus.

e. One sinless God is a fair substitute for an infinite number of sinful men.

Mind expounding on this one a bit more ???

f. He, despite being the greatest of all, allowed himself the indignity of dying a slave’s death on the cross.

No Jesus didnt die a slaves death. He died a criminals death. A slave is innocent, a victim of circumstances. and usually slaves dont get arbitarially crucified. a slave is valuable, property. A criminal is guilty of crimes, sins. Jesus died in the place of guilty, sinful criminals, US.

g. He rose from the dead three days later, triumphing over death and now sits at the Father’s right hand.

Theres more to it than that. Jesus walked up to Satan, demaned that satan hand ovedrt the keys to death hell and the grave and Satan handed them over to Jesus. Pay attention. When Jesus got those keys, the power of God was so strong that hundreds of people came out of the graves and were alive and walked around and went to their families. Dont water down the power of Almighty God.

4. Nana:

That mormon males will not bcome gods with planets of their own and harems full of women to constantly impregnate to make spirit children to worhip the new gods

4: EW:

Mormons believe all humans are spirit OFFSPRING (genos) of God. The Bible describes us as his “genus” with Jesus as the firstborn (prototokos). Our physical bodies are his creation while our spirits (who we actually are) are his spirit offspring. This is why God made the unimaginable sacrifice of subjecting his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the unimaginable torture of the Atonement. No sane entity, God or man, will subject their child to unimaginable torture for the sake of toys or mere creations. Christ’s sacrifice shows we’re much more important in God’s eyes than a mere creation.

BECAUSE we’re God’s spirit offspring, we are given the opportunity to become like him. While we are not “God” by nature - only the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are God by nature; we become God or gods by Grace. How? Because Jesus Christ “bridged” the two separate natures. He was fully, 100% God and he was fully, 100% man. He was “God” from his Father and “Man” from his mother. Because of Christ’s incarnation as a human or member of the “Homo Sapiens” species; he shares whatever he has with his true followers. He is the Head while we are the Body. He is the Groom while we are the Bride. These descriptions denote a unity far beyond what one would expect between God and some of his creatures.

We believe the Bible isn’t lying when it repeatedly describes the true followers are sharing Christ’s oneness or becoming like him. The early Church Fathers described this concept as THEOSIS no less than 150 times.

Instead of just enjoying “eternal bliss;” his true followers become the “bene ha elohim,” the Sons and Daughters of God, enjoying eternal increase and eventually evolving to a point of becoming deified into the oneness of the Godhead.

Nana’s additional coment...

Edward, That’s a lot of words you gave us but I’ll narrow it down to this. I dont think you know what you are talking about. None of that is in the Bible.

No we are not God’s “spiritual off spring” God didnt have sex with any “mother Godess” to create us...

You said “This is why God made the unimaginable sacrifice of subjecting his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the unimaginable torture of the Atonement.”

Since mormons believe that the “Atonement took place in Gethsemane, No jesus did not suffer any torture there.

Then you continued “No sane entity, God or man, will subject their child to unimaginable torture for the sake of toys or mere creations.” Well actually thats exactly what happened. We are a creation. Male and female created he them ...remember ??? the sixth day ??? Remember ??? Look Ma no hands Look Edward, no sex between God and a Godess to create your spirit.

5. Nana:

That women are not eternal sex slaves but are equal with men in salvation ???

5. EW:

What’s the obsession with sex? Mormons believe men and women are equal. In fact, we believe women are naturally more righteous than men. This is why the Priesthood is given only to men since we need it in order to approach the spiritual level of women.

5. Smile you’re on Candid Camera is all I could come up with on this one for now...Edward I doubt if you believed what you wrote about the priesthood any more than I did when I read this...

Women are second class citizens at best in Mormondom and are not considered “worthy” to have a “priesthood”

If women had a choice and it didnt matter whether they were priests or not why were they not only refused but maligned when they asked to be promoted to priesthood in 1978 when the black men were finally considered “worthy” due to the threat of the loss of the tax exemption for the mormon coffees ??? Why not just humor the more righteous gender with the priesthood ??? After all women who were more righteous meaning CLOSER TO GOD would know God’s mind better than men would...

Hmmmmmmmmmmm ??????????????

As for the sex thingy, you’ll have to ask Joey Smith...It was Joey Smith who was obsessed with sex, not Christians...he did it....we just report...

6. Nana:

That Mary did not have sex with man or god ???

6. EW:

Again with the sex. We believe God the Father is the literal father of the physical body of Jesus. We do NOT believe Mary had sex with God. All we are referring to is Jesus Christ’s PATERNITY. Where then did half his chromosomes come from? Where did his ability to reanimate after cellular decay originate? Or walk on water or heal the sick just by touching? He obviously wasn’t a clone since he possessed a different gender than Mary.

Nana’s additional comments...

And another section on sex. No, God did not have sex with Mary...The Christian God is well able to do anything He likes...Nothing is impossible with the Christian God...

The healing the sick thingy came from the anointing that Jesus recieving from the holy ghost when the Holy Ghost baptised Him at the River Jordan..

The walking on water thingy ??? Peter did it too...Shall we talk about that ??? Got an ideas on that one ??? Anyone ??? Lurkers want to chip in ???

7. Nana:

That Jesus is not the brother of Lucifer ???

7. EW:

Since we believe we’re all God’s spirit offspring with Christ as the Firstborn (prototokos); we believe Satan and the demons are also our siblings who rebelled against God’s plan and were cast out. Jesus and Satan are spirit siblings with each other and with us. We’re all one family. This is why Satan could demand God give him his power. God cast him out instead of merely pointing out to him that it wasn’t possible since he was only a creation.

Furthermore, if Satan was only a creation of God; that then opens up the philosophical problem of theodical culpability - God then is responsible for all the evil Satan causes since he created him, and as an all-powerful being who knows the future; he then becomes responsible for Satan’s actions since he has perfect foresight.

Nana’s additional comments...

IF Satan was ONLY a creation of God ??? He was he was only an angel, a created being...Jesus was God...Jesus created Lucifer...there were THREE archangels...Ludifer in charge of music who had a pipe organ etc built into him...he sang and worshipped God around the throne and lead the other angels in worship...the music/choir director...there was Gabriel the messager angel...he came to Mary to tell her she would be gewtting pregnant WITHOUT HAVING SEX WITH MAN OR GOD...and then there was Michael who was the warring angel...Lucifer got himself tossed out of heaven for thinking he was greater than God..