Posted on 04/18/2010 6:47:04 PM PDT by Salvation
“hence the contention that the Bible doesn’t teach salvation by baptism, but baptism as an outward symbol and public testimony of the inward work that has already taken place.”
Seems pretty clear to me that all those who are believers ought to be baptised, not because it’s a sign, but because it’s a sacramental and that it bears salvific grace.
I take it on faith that I receive the benefit of Jesus’ broken body and shed blood in communion, but not that I am eating literal flesh and drinking literal blood...you can believe what you want.
“By the way, I find it interesting how you “claim” me as a Catholic because you think I was baptized Catholic.”
YOu say you experienced the Catholic faith from inside. So I must ask the question as to whether this means you were baptised and confirmed. If so, then you are and always will be a member of the Catholic church.
“If you think baptism saves you apart from faith”
No, but baptism is necessary for salvation. If you are saved by faith apart from baptism, why have bapstism at all? Even Christ submitted to baptism.
“If you can’t tell the difference between the texture of meat (flesh) and bread, what can I say? Or does the change take place after you swallow?”
Christ is very clear about this. Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have no life in you. The disciples said this was a hard teaching, and we see the same thing today.
It is not a symbol, Christ is bodily present in the bread and the wine, or how else do you interpret, “I am the living bread, he who eats of me shall never go hungry.” Did not the manna from heaven actually sustain the Israelites, or was that simply symbolic too? They had Manna, we have Christ.
No. The Spirit of Christ dwells in me. If you want to believe you are chewing a piece of literal human flesh and drinking literal human blood during Mass, that is up to you. I am content to receive the benefits of Christ’s suffering by faith, through the symbolic act of communion.
If you think you are saved by externals, that is your choice.
“There is none so blind as one who will not see.”
Amen!
The "benefit"?! Where is that in Scripture? Again... I've done you the courtesy of posting from the Bible since you are of the Sola Scriptura camp... please do me the courtesy of showing references for your pronouncements. It would be the height of hypocrisy to criticize the Church for your perception of Her Teachings as extra-biblical and to then make up your own doctrines on the fly...
For the record, we Catholics simply take Christ at His Word and trust Him. He said it was His Body and Blood that He gave to His Apostles. We trust Him that they received His Body and Blood. He then gave the command to them to continue this practice in "remembrance". The problem of that word is that there is no direct translation for what it really means. The Passover supper they were sharing was also done in remembrance... that meant they were to have sandals on feet, staffs in hand and be prepared to make the Exodus the next day. It is more than the English word signifies... it is akin to a recreation... to make it real for all succeeding generations. We do that, as commanded, in the Mass.
If you take the Real Presence out of the Eucharist, you are left with an empty and vain ritual... something I thought Protestants detested.
It is the very definition of walking "by faith and not by sight." So many of Protestant brethren refuse to see with the eyes of faith what they can not perceive in their flesh.
Jesus wasn’t physically, personally baptizing:
Jhn 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit:
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Before water baptism:
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
After water baptism:
Act 19:1 ¶ And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Enjoy your prime minister(s). Hopefully he/they will open the right doors for you.
I think I’ll go directly to the Lord.
Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
In both of these instances... what was the mechanism of Baptism?
Enjoy your proof-texts which contradict nothing that I have said.
This is fun... do you believe in Sola Fide (saved by Faith Alone)?
You asked: In both of these instances... what was the mechanism of Baptism?
If you mean purpose of baptism, then...
Identification.
Thank you...I will enjoy the throne of grace, and come boldly to it/my high priest...as instructed by God.
You posted: If you take the Real Presence out of the Eucharist, you are left with an empty and vain ritual... something I thought Protestants detested.
If you take the real presence of Christ out of the your daily, moment by moment experience of Christianity, and confine it to the Eucharist you are left with an empty and vain life...something I hope Catholics would detest.
By mechanism I was referring to water... what do you mean by identification?
And some of us reject false doctrine because we can see with the eyes God gave us and reason with the mind God gave us, and keep in context the Scriptures God gave us with the help of His Holy spirit who leads us.
That isn't the faith we Catholics profess. You simply set up a straw man to knock down.
**You simply set up a straw man to knock down.**
Very well said.
As Pilate asked, “What is truth?”
Your average atheist could make the same retort (except they would refer to the Holy Spirit as something more akin to “inspiration”).
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