Posted on 05/13/2010 11:22:06 AM PDT by markomalley
Whew. Thank God my Savior’s grace is greater by far than my sin.
If I do not place myself under the governance of the Roman Pontiff, does that disqualify me from being a member of the Christ’s Church (i.e., the communion of saints, the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ)?
UNDERSTAND THAT If you placed yourself "under the governance of the Roman Pontiff", and participated in the "profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, BUT died with one mortal sin on your soul, you would not be saved.
Now, this "governance" needs further defining before we could say that you "disqualified from being a member of the Christ’s Church". If you outright reject the office of the pope,its authority, yes, you are outside of the Church and "disqualified" from being a member of the Christ’s Church".
Are you familiar with the SSPX? One could make the case that the SSPX are not "under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff", yet they LIVE their Catholic faith like few Catholics. They say they are united to ALL the popes, and owe their allegiance to the post Vatican II popes, but that they can not follow the current popes when they teach novelties (or ambigious teaching that appear to be novelties) never taught by the previous popes. In other words, they do not reject the office, the authority of the pope.
Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878) recognised the danger that a pope could “teach contrary to the Catholic Faith”, and he instructed, “do not follow him.”
“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.” (Letter to Bishop Brizen)
In other words, you are saying that thank God that you are aready saved, even though you live in sin.
Like I said before, for people like you, ignorance is bliss. You don't want to know anything past that you are saved already. That's likely your only dogma/doctrine.
Do you believe that:
Whether people partake in impure touching, fornicate before marriage, shack up, marry civil only, divorce from a marriage before God, abort children conceived in a rape, watch immoral programs and movies like Desperate Housewives, watch pornography, go to strip clubs, go to the beach to look at the naked girls... IT”S ALL OK FOR THEM, if are Christians, they are all saved?
Do you believe that, whether people partake in impure touching, fornicate before marriage, shack up, marry civil only, divorce from a marriage before God, abort children conceived in a rape, watch immoral programs and movies like Desperate Housewives, watch pornography, go to strip clubs, go to the beach to look at the naked girls... IT”S ALL OK FOR THEM, if they are Christians, they are all saved?
Yes, I am a sinner, in daily need of grace. I am not ignorant; I am grateful to the Savior daily ... saves.
Of course I am concerned about doctrine. Why do you demean me so much? You are just so nasty, Leoni, to speak so poorly about me. Let me ask you: Are you resigned to going to hell, or have you attained a state of sinlessness?
Theo, that is not the definition of the Church. That is something the Latins invented. The catholic Church is where the Eucharist is, and the Eucharist is where a bishop is; a bishop being someone who gets his authority in direct succession from the apostles.
Now, you may disagree with this, but this is what the catholic Church believed and professed as early as 105 AD (based on the epistles of St. Ignatius).
If I do not place myself under the governance of the Roman Pontiff, does that disqualify me from being a member of the Christ’s Church (i.e., the communion of saints, the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ)?
Theo, apparently you don't know much about the Church. Salvation is not in the Church. The Church is where you salvation is believed more likely to happen then going at it alone. Also, your concept of what salvation is has a great deal to do with where you look for it.
In the Eastern tradition of Christianity, salvation is not a juridical concept (justification), but one of restoration to the likeness of God (become Christ-like) which was lost by the Fall.
This restoration is made possible by grace, through repentance (permanent change) in one's thinking, and doing (theosis) in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, and following his lead. This effort is sustained though sacraments (spiritual food) which nourishes our spirit to persevere.
God can save anyone he wants, technically speaking, but one's chances are believed greatly enhanced by participating in the life of the Church, where out tendencies to stray are more likely to be corrected, for, as the Bible says, "narrow is the path."
none of the eastern Churches recognizes the Pope as the Vicar of Christ on earth, yet they are as catholic and as valid as the Latin Church because they all have bishops whose authority is based on apostolic succession, they all have valid sacraments, and valid priesthood.
Even Rome recognizes that Eastern Churches are 'real churches' even though the lack the fullness from not being ion communion with the Pope. And the Eastern churches say that the Latin Church lacks equally the fullness of being in communion with a significant number of her sister Churches. The Church is deficient in that it exists as two disunited "lungs," but the catholic Church exists in its fullness in any local church wherever a valid Eucharist is offered under a valid bishop.
Very well said, Kosta. There is one Church.
Why are you so hung up on Rome? Rome is not an issue.
I have not demeaned your faith in Jesus because I have no clue as to your understanding of Jesus. The doctrines of the Church and its Christology are pretty clear. What you, as a member of whatever denomination or non denominational, happen to be believe at this moment in time, are subject to change. Radical change, if you follow the children of the Reformation. And; I do not have a denomination. There is only one Church.
I remain a member of Christ's church.
How do you know?
His church finds its home not in Rome, but in Heaven.
The Head of the Church is Jesus, of course. Scripture is clear; He has made the Apostles the stewards of the Church. Peter was given the first keys; he is called primus inter pares - first among equals. But equals the bishops are. Other than being individual men, is there any difference between Patriarch Kirill and Pope Benedict? Different jurisdictions. Russia versus the West. Very roughly speaking, of course.
Talk amongst yourselves, about how the Christ-follower is deceived because he trusts in Jesus as his Savior and Lord, and not in Rome.
You are just so hung up on Rome in your posts. Read some Church history for a better understanding.
Is there a better place to go to look at them? :)
You are so hung up on your church that you diminish Jesus. For you, it’s all about the Pope and Mary and your church structure and “apostolic succession” and so on. And absent all of this talk of yours is Jesus.
Seriously, eternity in heaven consists of RELATIONSHIP with Jesus, the Savior of all who’ve been adopted into the family of God. And yet you prefer to talk about your church structure than Jesus.
May your eyes open one day to Jesus, who has reconciled us to the Father. Reconciled not so that we can defend our church structure, but so that we may enjoy fellowship with the Father in community with other Christ-followers.
I, a creature of Him, can diminish Him? Neato. I must be even more powerful than Lucifer, since not even Lucifer could diminish Him. Thanks for the kudos. Wanna worship me, since you have posted that I am so powerful that I can diminish Jesus. Wow.
For you, it’s all about the Pope and Mary and your church structure and “apostolic succession” and so on.
Have you even paid attention to my posts? What have I said about Mary or any of these other topics in my posts to you?
And absent all of this talk of yours is Jesus.
I thought that I made it clear that Jesus is the Head of the Church. Have you even paid attention to what I have said?
Seriously, eternity in heaven consists of RELATIONSHIP with Jesus
Chapter and verse, please. Come on, let's have it.
And yet you prefer to talk about your church structure than Jesus.
If you follow the thread, actually, you do.
May your eyes open one day to Jesus, who has reconciled us to the Father.
Ah, a subordinationist. Are you a Binarist as well?
Reconciled not so that we can defend our church structure, but so that we may enjoy fellowship with the Father in community with other Christ-followers.
A real subordinationist / binarist. Are you LDS or SDA, by the way? Have you ever paid attention to what Jesus actually told us about Heaven?
It would never occur to me to insert myself in a Protestant thread on a topic that is distinctly Protestant and start criticising Protestantism. It is when on a Catholic thread Protestants show up and try to tell us how to worship God that I might point out to them that they should take the log out of their eye first.
My wife is a former Protestant. I am friends with many Protestants, including some pastors, and can testify to their deep faith. I have a problem with Protestant doctrines but not with Protestants individually, and find many Protestant traits admirable.
**It is when on a Catholic thread Protestants show up and try to tell us how to worship God that I might point out to them that they should take the log out of their eye first.**
Ditto!
You’re making a big deal out of my proper use of “diminish”? It’s simply the antonym of “magnify,” a word found among other places in Psalm 34:3: “Oh, magnify the LORD with me,and let us exalt his name together.” No need to ridicule me for using the word, correctly.
Whoa! You don’t believe that eternity in heaven consists of relationship with Jesus? Seriously? Honestly? Have you heard of the Wedding Supper of the Lamb (see Revelation 19:9, for example). That’s a celebration of ... the very closest of relationships! I pray you’re in attendance.
You’re calling me a “subordinationist”? What are you talking about? Jesus has indeed reconciled us with the Father. Romans 5:11 says that “we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 2 Cor. 5:18 explains that God has “reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.”
And you’re calling me “subordinationist” because I recount a clearly biblically defensible doctrine?
I’m not sure what you mean by “binarist.” And, no, I’m not LDS — I’m a Christ-follower who trusts that God has revealed Himself through Scripture.
I honestly do not understand your antagonism toward me, MarkBsnr. I want to promote Christ and you lash out at me in every way you can think. I support what I say with Scripture, and you simply attack me. Why such antagonism, MarkBsnr?
Tell me, you who make much of your faith: How does that comment honor Christ? Seriously?
The Orthodox Church does recognize papal primacy in an ecclesial sense. The meaning of the word is contentious. But no man defines the Church, and no Church saves by itself. Salvation is in attaining a restored image of God.
Good point. I - and about everyone in has ever been in business will tell you; when someone make a point of their Religion, slide a dust pan down the back of your pants, a royal - - - - - - - - is coming.
And for the record, that applies to ALL who use Religion as part of their introduction process.
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