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To: Iscool
I asked you to translate the verse in English from 'your' Hebrew source

Well, it isn't "my" Hebrew source. It is from the Mesorah - where 95% of all Bibles get their Hebrew Scriptures, but here you go, transliterated in a literal, mechanical translation:

vayikra Ya'akov shem hamakom p'niel ki-raiti ekohim panyim el-panyim vatinatzel nafshi

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived/saw/sensed Ekohim sides to sides and rescued/preserved my soul.

I have circumlocuted reference to G-d by adding a koof ["k"], although the word is also used for angels. I have provided multiple words where there is no direct translation. Ask anyone who speaks modern or biblical Hebrew and they will vouch for the mechanical translation. As you can see, Hebrew is very concise.
99 posted on 07/06/2010 4:15:25 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
פּנים

vayikra Ya'akov shem hamakom p'niel ki-raiti ekohim panyim el-panyim vatinatzel nafshi

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived/saw/sensed Ekohim sides to sides and rescued/preserved my soul.

The sentence as you post it makes no sense...

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived Ekohim sides to sides and rescued my soul...

That's what it really says, eh???

pânı̂ym
paw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.): - + accept, a (be-) fore (-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront (-part), form (-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him (-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look [-eth] (-s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, prospect, was purposed, by reason, of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them (-selves), through (+ -out), till, time (-s) past, (un-) to (-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with (-in, + stand), X ye, X you.

With this translation of the word for 'face', sides doesn't occur one single time...And then I see in your reconstruction of the Hebrew, to was added to the second face instead of having it's own definition while the original Masoretic text has them separate...

Well, it isn't "my" Hebrew source. It is from the Mesorah - where 95% of all Bibles get their Hebrew Scriptures, but here you go, transliterated in a literal, mechanical translation:

The KJV translators had the same access to the Masorah as you do but decided to stick with the written Hebrew instead of the Masorah...I suspect many others did as well since I don't recollect seeing 'sides to sides' in the verse in other translations...

Without looking, I'd bet that the Douay Rheims says 'face to face' and not, sides to sides...I'd bet that most translations say face to face...

I'll stick with 'face to face'...The man in the verse is clearly the Angel of the Lord, which is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ...

And if you've seen the Angel of the Lord, you've seen the face of God...

102 posted on 07/06/2010 8:06:58 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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