Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
“they’ve been forgiven”????
for being Catholic?
Looks like from the religious threads here the hostility to Catholics is phenomenal!
There are millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of people who call themselves Christians yet deny the Divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity.
Saint Ignatius of Antioch was an Apostolic Church Father who personally knew Saints Peter, John and perhaps others. He was martyred sometime around 117 AD (he was fed to lions), as he was being taken to Rome he wrote letters, here is what he wrote in his Epistle to the Smyrnæans:
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. (Chapter 7)
If Ignatius was wrong, why did NONE of the Apostles or Church Fathers correct him?
That is why most believers don’t consider affiliating with a particular denomination significant.
Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans make up well over three-quarters of the world's Christians, so your premise has no merit. The whole "non-denominational" thing is primarily an American development that came about in the last century.
Besides, as pointed out earlier, since they are non-Catholic, they are considered heretical by default by the Catholic church so it’s pretty much irrelevant which one it is.
Do you deny the Nicene Creed? Because, if not, whatever was pointed out is false.
wow...you really know your stuff!
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the Faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus CHrist, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal. 2:16).
There are probably a lot of people who name the name of Jesus, whose names are not written in the Book of Life.
What exceptions do you not care for in scripture?
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to sound unfair. I was just combining all the questions into one post instead of asking them one by one. I thought it would be more efficient and allow you to develop your answers.
That's why there is no in-fighting amongst ourselves. HmmmmMaybe there is no in-fighting amongst yourselves [non-Catholics] because you all have something outrageous (and empty) in common; the junking of the Eucharistic Lord! "...Take and eat; this is my body" -Matt 26:26.
Really? You believe that? How strange. Actually the faith/works situation is not either/or. It's both/and.
If it has been an “empire,” it has been in decline many times but come back as many times. The history of the Roman Church if graphed looks like a sine curve, or the stock market during the past two years.
Is it better to “feel” close to a woman or be with her? ;-) Why be content with the virtual when you can have the real thing?
Yes. I believe that. Not strange at all. If you believe the Gospel. <p.”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8,9).
No, you are not Catholic. But from our perspective, you are like the native of a country that recognizes dual citizenship. You retain the right to reclaim your former citizenship at any time. Your neighbor in the pew, who has always been Baptist has to jump through more hoops if he decides to become Catholic.
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Right there is the both/and I am talking about. It's the fullness of the faith.
Here's the deal. You won't like it.
You get that "eternal" is not the same as "for ever and ever?" The old joke is "Time is God's way of keeping everything from happening all at once."
But, Whitehead to the contrary notwithstanding, God is eternal. Outside of time. Unchanging. He does not "foresee". He merely sees.
The sacrifices of the old, ahem, dispensation, were time bound. They "ran out." Men, creatures of time, sacrificed bullocks, sheep, goats, turtledoves, all creatures of time.
We should have compassion. As someone who has killed animals and watched humans die I say with all the authority I need, death is a mystery - a point of contact with that which is essentially greater than the whole order of creation. We can see, not only in Leviticus (for instance) but in our own hearts how somehow shedding blood, "spending" life (for the blood -dam, is the life - hay), would be hoped to be a way of contacting the Eternal. And we could see how that dispensation could of its essence not possibly be for ever.
But when He brings the first born into the world He says ... "But thou art the same, and thy years shall never end."
Jesus, the babe of Bethlehem, the young man of Nazareth, the corpse of Jerusalem ... is also the eternal God.
The sacrifice of Calvary is not just a point in time. It is the Epiphany of what God IS.
Even the currently and deservedly popular Scott Hahn gets this a little wrong when he talks about the "continual" sacrifice. It is NOT "continual". It simply is. Beyond time, where there is only now, God is pouring out what He is, for love. It is not forever. It is not continual. It just is.
Jesus is God and Man. What He "did" is not just "done" "then." It just is.
And so the, let's use the most scandalous language, "sacrifice of the Mass" is not a repetition, not a continuation.
The best way to say it MAY be this:
What simply IS
and therefore what is, in some sense, "everywhere and always"
was "there and then" in the Upper Room, on Calvary, and at the empty tomb, about 1,973 years ago
AND is "here and now" for us in this little piece of what looks like goldfish food in my hand.
Now you may not believe that. But you also may not say that we teach that we are adding to or repeating or anything like that to What God is and What God DID.
It is fun to live in the age of Science fiction and really cool stuff in movies, because we can imagine all sorts of weird stuff about time warps and unspeakable energies. But all that stuff is just the movies.
I like to think about Mary and Joseph bringing Jesus to the temple at his presentation and I imagine that, just below the threshold of hearing, the pillars and the walls were humming with incredible energy, as the Temple greeted Him whom it was built to honor.
But all that is to cheapen God. He is not only like the thunderstorm or the volcano. He is the still small voice, like the water which gently trickles in were we didn't even know there was a space for water.
So gently, humbly, He feeds us with the "accidents" of bread, and delights us with the accidents of wine, as He draws us most intimately into the life which rejoices in loving sacrifice.
When I eat THIS "bread"; when I drink this cup, He proclaims His Life in me, until he comes in Glory.
So that's kind of how we think of it.
I am weary of typing out my stories of how Catholics, Protestants, and others have fallen into the proclamation of a, what, LOUSYspel of law and guilt. What can I say?
TO someone who wants to know what is the least he can do to inherit eternal life, the Gospel seems like a burden. To me, confession, prayers, sacraments ... they're all wonderful gifts, like energy pods for pacman!
I can't help it if someone who thinks God is a jerk says stupid stuff about what it's like to be a Catholic. But it's not reasonable to expect me to be bound by the murmuring of such Israelites. I remember the bondage in Egypt. I remember the Red Sea when God fought for me and I had only to be still. I see in these things not burdens, but gifts.
Salvation leads to good works. Good works do NOT lead to salvation. You have it backwards. But you feel you are on a salvation journey. You don't believe that a person can KNOW they are saved. So those good works are important to you. I guess they are the difference in heaven or hell to you.
As to your analogy about going to NY. I would fly there. To get to heaven, I fly on the wings of a dove - I am found in Christ, not having my own righteousness but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Phil. 3:9
The “impious” refers to Catholics. If you call yourself Catholic, don’t say the following is true. It’s a heresy. BTW, none of the judgements was of individuals, only their doctrines.
You all treat salvation like a commercial transaction. "What's the least I have to do to be saved? Have faith? OK. Good. Got that. I'm in."
So if I say when a girl who thinks herself plain, finds that the most handsome young man in the ballroom is bowing before her and asking her for a dance, she must curtsy and put one hand on his shoulder and the other in his, You all say "WORKS righteousness!!!!!
I say, "to curtsy, to put one hand on His shoulder and the other in His -- that was all she ever wanted."
> ”This unity can also be seen by way of contrast with cults and groups they reject, which err in these fundamentals, which is usually due to formally or effectively holding men as a higher authority than the Scriptures.” <
“Oh please. Christ is the head of the Catholic church. Ive heard that absolute nonsense about Catholicism resembling a cult and that is more divisive propaganda worthy of Catholophobia comics of the louche variety.”
It is easy to see the shoe fitting here, and your response is the same they use. The question is, by what means can we know for certain that Rome is indeed the one true and infallible church, with Christ as its head?
I know you’re weary. I’m weary too of seeing one Catholic say one thing and another say another. But, you believe in the depths of your heart the things you say. We don’t agree, but we both believe to our core those things we trust in for our salvation and our eternity. All I want is some kind of consistency from those who demand as much from our side. It’s not too much to ask for, I don’t think. I would think that as much as Roman Catholics depend on their Church doctrines and traditions for their sanctification, justification and salvation they would know a little more about what their Church says about those things. Seems it would be incumbent on them to know EVERYTHING they possibly could. After all, it’s THEIR eternity that is at stake. And I’m certain they cannot bring their priest with them to testify before God that they did not know/weren’t taught certain important things. Can they? ;)
Because salvation is all about Him, "by whom all things consist."
Scripture says we are to emulate Him, not for what that gets us, but for what has been done for us.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." -- Hebrews 2:9-13 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.