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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; RnMomof7; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
I thought the whole theosis deal was to become "as a God".

By grace; not by nature. Holy, not divine.  

—o0o—

To wit, no one is ever elevated to literal Divine status, and Heaven is not a place conducive to the presence of sin. Therefore, if anyone is to enter into Heaven it must be in some form without sin. This is expressed in terms of glorification and having glorified bodies.

There is an ontological difference, FK. Only God is potentially without sin. When God created Adam, he was without sin, but not without the potential to commit sin. In his sinless state, Adam was neither God, nor was he "glorified." He was only like God in that he did not commit and sins (yet).

Theosis is restoring man to his original intended state, free of committed sin, in the likeness of God. Salvation is not being "rescued" from an angry God, but being restored to his likeness, which was lost in the Fall when our ancestral parents committed the first sin.

—o0o—

I also do not see controversy in the idea of standing before the Father. I suspect the reason the author put it this way is in keeping with the language in Romans 5:6-11. The idea is that we are reconciled TO God BY Christ.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that (in his mind) there is one God, the Father (1 Cor 8:6). Trinitarian Christianity, however, theologically understands God is one ontological entity, one nature (essence), in three separate, unconfused divine realities (hypostases), or "persons" as you call them in the West, in the economy of our salvation.

—o0o—

Economically speaking, that is, how God manages his "plan," it is not the Father who is to judge, but the Son. It is therefore Christ before whom the resurrected souls will "stand" (Matthew 25), and it is Christ who will judge them, not the Father.

So, if there is going to be any reconciliation of the souls before God, it will be by and through Christ, not the father—economically speaking.

—o0o—

As to when the saints will be perfected it appears to be a matter of some eschatological debate. I believe the final perfection is pretty much the last thing to happen before the elect then move into Heaven for eternity.

FK, the "kingdom of God" or the "heavenly kingdom" refers to Israel, God's own kingdom on earth. Apocalyptic Judaism believed in the restored, perfected earth, new earth with the new Jerusalem, not a castle in the sky.

—o0o—

 I think many Protestants believe, including Baptists, that at the point of death the saved are in the "presence" of God (2 Cor. 5:8)

What does "in presence of God" mean? besides, 2 Cor 5:8 doesn't say that. He says we prefer to be without the body but "at home with the Lord."

—o0o—

but that final perfection does not take place until after the second coming of Christ

Yeah, that final perfection inlcudes having a new body! 

15,678 posted on 11/09/2010 2:53:59 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; RnMomof7; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
Salvation is not being "rescued" from an angry God, but being restored to his likeness, which was lost in the Fall when our ancestral parents committed the first sin.

I suppose the very essence of what salvation means is one of the major differences between the different Christian faiths. In any event, if theosis, then, is restoration to the pre-Fall Adamic state, and as you said this includes the potentiality for sin, then do the Orthodox believe that the saved enter Heaven finally with the potential to sin further? I would be very surprised if this was the case. I would say that once we had our glorified bodies there would be no potential for sin. And no, that would not make us Divine. It would make us finally changed.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that (in his mind) there is one God, the Father (1 Cor 8:6).

Paul gave full credit to Christ for being God:

Col. 1:16-17 : 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Phil 2:5-11 : 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

FK, the "kingdom of God" or the "heavenly kingdom" refers to Israel, God's own kingdom on earth. Apocalyptic Judaism believed in the restored, perfected earth, new earth with the new Jerusalem, not a castle in the sky.

The Bible refers to more than one "kingdom". There is God's kingdom on earth and an extraterrestrial (not of this earth) eschatological kingdom. I was talking about the one the elect will spend eternity going forward in:

Matt. 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

This kingdom is obviously not on earth.

What does "in presence of God" mean? besides, 2 Cor 5:8 doesn't say that. He says we prefer to be without the body but "at home with the Lord."

It means there is no weigh station after physical death in which we are tortured or otherwise purified by pain, subject to being bailed out by money or prayer. :) Since we often speak of the deceased as being at home with the Lord, I would use the two phrases you quote above synonymously.

15,682 posted on 11/09/2010 9:04:40 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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