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To: annalex
“The Catechism also teaches that Mary was free from all sin, so in the end both my analysis and the Catechism agree that the passages in Romans 5 do not implicate Mary in any sin.”

That Catechism that you refer to also contradicts what you say about “the many and all”, doesn't it?

“That woman is Sara, Abraham's wife, of whom both we descend spiritually. The passage has nothing to do with Mary.”

Precisely, so Mary is not called ‘the mother of those obey the commandments of God’ while Sarah figuratively is in Scripture.

“Sts. Paul and Peter, and all the elect are raised as souls, and they are awaiting the glorified bodies today.”

Not according to 1 Cor. 15:42-44 where Paul says that those resurrected are “raised a spiritual body”, That is the resurrection from the dead for them, not going to heaven and waiting to receive a body later. By Paul's words they have been given that “spiritual body” upon resurrection.

“1017 “We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess” (Council of Lyons II: DS 854). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a “spiritual body” (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-44).”

It's a fleshly body, it's a spiritual body. The “flesh we now possess”, ignores Paul's word revelation that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom”. (1 Cor. 15:50)

“Mary is the exception in that she preceded us in heaven in the glorified body.”

Nothing in Scripture so indicates but as the Catholic Encyclopedia writes of the Catholic Churce’s teaching on Mary:
“The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite.”

In short , “”Mary is the exception in that she preceded us in heaven in the glorified body.” is a teaching based upon fraud and myth.

748 posted on 09/29/2010 6:19:02 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
That Catechism that you refer to also contradicts what you say about “the many and all”, doesn't it?

The essential point in our argument is that "all" in Romans 5 does not refer to Mary. Neither did I mean that "many" in Romans 5 means people commonly are born and live without sin.

so Mary is not called ‘the mother of those obey the commandments of God’ while Sarah figuratively is in Scripture

Mary (the mother of Christ) is called that in Rev 12, and one thing does not exclude the other.

By Paul's words they have been given that “spiritual body” upon resurrection.

Indeed, but the resurrection of the dead in their bodies is generally going to happen as the Second Coming of Christ and not right after death. The soul is taken up to heaven right after death, and then it remains separated from the body till the consummation of this world.

is a teaching based upon fraud and myth

It is a teaching not reflected in the scripture. It is however belief of the Early Church which has been recognized dogmatically at Vatican I because, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, the Catohlic faithful kep the belief. The "De Obitu S. Dominae" is a witness to the ancient nature of that belief. The fact that is in not canonical that is to say, is apocryphal, -- nothing of 4c. is canonical -- is irrelevant. All patristic writings serve a similar purpose: unless we see heresy in them, they testify to a belief of the Early Curch and therefore teach us what to believe. This is a fundamental difference we Catholic have compared to the Protestants: out beliefs did not come from 15c charlatans, but rather form the Holy Apostles and their immediate pupils.

749 posted on 09/30/2010 5:31:16 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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