Posted on 10/26/2010 5:17:20 AM PDT by Colofornian
Is that passage found in Moby Dick?
Are you sure you are talking about Romans 8? I thought Paul wrote about running the race in 1 Corinthians 9 and Hebrews 12. But then, perhaps I am confused.
Those quibbles aside, I agree that one must be born again, that one must run patiently the race set before us, and that one must endure to the end. I also agree that one cannot do any of these things on his own merits.
Those are all perfectly good Mormon doctrines. (I would be happy to cite the Book of Mormon in support of that claim; but perhaps I should first check to see what Tolkien and Melville may have written on the subject.)
“Wow. We Mormons sound like real scoundrels.”
Define scoundrel, as you are using it please.
“Tell me, can you ever believe anything we say about our faith?”
Basing my answer entirely on my questions and your
response in this post here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2614709/posts?page=219#219
... and Color Country’s response here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2614709/posts?page=222#222
... and here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2614709/posts?page=225#225
I believe your original post fell into the category of either “avoiding the truth” or telling “half truths”. So in
answer to your question about believing “anything we say”,
I trust, but verify.
Best,
ampu
My comment was not about “concerns “ Paragon...it was an opinion of why Smith was obviously already primed for occult influences by his families involvement in these practices throughout his childhood.
Sounds just like a concern to me. Anyway, please check out the links. We may just have to disagree. Thanks much! - PD
I did not quote from Romans, I pointed to the passage from Paul which supports the concept of 'first you get saved, then you run the race, and after running the race you get the rewards for your performance'. Your religion has that turned around, which is not surprising for a religion that wishes to dupe the adherents into believing they can be gods on some future planets, promoted--or should I say gained as one of your leaders did--to the position of godhood. But I can see why you want that to seem confusing, as if that is also the teaching of your peepstone predator of married women cum false prophet.
“I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
Sorry, Logo, that is blasphemous heresy. That you do not realize it contradicts what the Bible teaches is yet another sign of being under the influence of a demonic cult.
But how do you verify?
If a Mormon and a non-Mormon (or ex-Mormon) disagree about some aspect of Mormonism, how do you decide who is telling the truth and who is lying?
Do you ever consider that two people can have an honest disagreement?
"Those quibbles aside, I agree that one must be born again, that one must run patiently the race set before us, and that one must endure to the end. I also agree that one cannot do any of these things on his own merits." Logophile Do you believe that one must FIRST be born again, THEN run the race set before us? Do you believe that 'endure to the end' refers to running the race AFTER being born again? Careful how you answer, because your religion has quotes from your leadership we can consult to check your Mormon answer.
A couple of questionw I ask myself when confronted with similar issues of determining who is telling the truth are these; Who is it that has the most to gain or lose if the truth is told? Who is it that has the biggest motivation to lie?
So when two people disagree, do you automatically assume that someone must be lying?
Is it not possible that both are telling the truth as they understand it?
Actually made me laugh......
How did the French word “adieu” get into the Book of Mormon? (Jacob 7:27)
Brigham Young said, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy”. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269) Why did the Mormons yield to the pressure of the government and stop practicing polygamy?
If the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, why have the Mormons changed it? (There have been over 3,000 changes in the Book of Mormon, exclusive of punctuation changes)
Why is it that no other writings have been found in the language of “Reformed Egyptian”, the supposed language of the Book of Mormon plates? Is there evidence that such a language really existed?
Romans 8:1-17 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [That is now, not in some future exchange, now no condemnation to them who walk not after the flesh, trying to resist the flesh's influence like Mormonism teaches as a condition for receiving the Grace of God in Christ.] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [Surely you see that Paul is pointing to the weakness/impossibility of legalism--like Mormonism teaches as pre-condition to receiving--to receive the Grace. If you could keep the law to be righteous, the cross would be superfluous. If you cannot see that meaning, I have other passages which will make it clear for you, but Paul interates the meaning in the following.]
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [Paul is telling Mormons that to seek salvation 'after all that you can do'--that is governing oneself by the carnal mind--is to be subject to the law of sin and death, that Jesus ended that impossible task with His own blood as the perfect sacrifice. In the Jewish tradition, the sacrifice was given to cancel the sins of the past year, or to cancel the sins which would yet occur in the coming year? ... The blood was to cancel the sins already committed, then the blood would have to be applied again in a years time. But Jesus offered His own blood, that, once for all sins, so you can walk after the spirit from the day you are born again, all the rest of your life because your sins, all your sins, have been blotted out.]
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [The Spirit, God's Spirit, The Spirit of Christ is to dwell in you from the moment you are born again. To ignore that precious truth is to spit in God's face.] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [Notice, again Paul emphasizes the Spirit of Christ, The Holy Spirit dwells in you.]
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [Notice again, this is cast in the present tense, not a pie in the sky right before you die transaction as Mormonism teaches.]
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.' ... If a Mormon insists on 'after all that he or she can do then to receive the Grace and Spirit of God, that person is not now a Christian, because they are walking after the flesh, with the carnal mind battling daily to defeat sin and conquer death. BUT if that Mormon receives the Spirit and walks after the spirit, not waiting to receive the Grace of God in Christ into them after all that they can do to earn the Grace, then that Mormon is a Christian. That is what Paul teaches is the action of faith, faithing, walking after the Spirit relying on the Promise of God.
The sequence is 'be born again, receive into your spirit the Spirit of Christ, walk in the spirit and God will defeat the power of sin and death in you for the rest of your life'. Sure, you'll slip and fall, but there is now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus. You cannot lose His promised Salvation, for if you could then you would have to crucify again the Son of God to obtain cleansing. [I'm sure you know to which passage in Paul's letters that comes from.] Do you believe God would entrust His precious Grace to your care, you who has been defeated by the law of sin and death and needing the only remedy, the Blood fo Christ?
There cannot be two conflicting 'truths' - there is only one truth. The ball will either fall to the ground when you drop it or go the the sky. Truth is that it goes to the ground. The other is fantasy.
“But how do you verify?”
I go to the Bible and compare what mormonism teaches to
what God says. Mormonism always comes up short, sucking
wind and promoting a condemned heresy.
“If a Mormon and a non-Mormon (or ex-Mormon) disagree about some aspect of Mormonism, how do you decide who is telling the truth and who is lying?”
The mormon has been taught to be deceitful, by “lying for
the Lord” - ie. withholding the full truth under the
justification that people are “not ready for meat”. I
believe the person who was a 5th generation mormon and has
lived the mormon lies and then comes to realize they
were deceived. They can recount their exact experience
blow for blow. There are tens of thousands who are willing
to discuss their experience. A picture emerges that
mormonism tries to hide. When what they say is backed up
by your official writings, of course I believe that person.
The problem your cult has - other than the fact it is a
heresy - is that it does not want to be forthright and
honest about what it believes. It is too bizarre and not
even close to Christianity. You wear magic underwear, for
crying out loud. So your members come of FR and refuse to
confirm what your group teaches, because they know it is
so far out of Christianity.
“Do you ever consider that two people can have an honest disagreement?”
Sure. But if by that you mean that we can look at the Bible
and you can say there can exist an infinite number of gods
and I read God’s specific statement that there is ONE God and no other God but Him, then we do not have an honest
disagreement. We have a heresy on your side.
There is not moral or spiritual equivalence there at all,
so it is more than an honest disagreement.
Best,
ampu
It means someone doesn't understand. Then we must look at the evidence and come to a conclusion.
Actually, adieu has been an English word since the 14th century. And it got into the Book of Mormon the same way all the other English words did: The book is a translation.
Brigham Young said, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy”. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269)
In the same talk, Brigham Young said,
It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained.In context, President Young seems to be saying that LDS must accept the doctrine even if they did not practice polygamy themselves.
Why did the Mormons yield to the pressure of the government and stop practicing polygamy?
The Lord told them to.
If the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, why have the Mormons changed it? (There have been over 3,000 changes in the Book of Mormon, exclusive of punctuation changes)
I thought it was over 4000 changes. No matter. We are not scriptural inerrantists. As Robert J. Matthews observes,
During [Joseph Smith's] lifetime, three editions of the Book of Mormon were printed. Each time, he amended the text in a few places to more correctly convey the intended meaning of his translation. Other changes in these and successive editions were made to correct typographical errors, improper spelling, and inaccurate or missing punctuation and to improve grammar and sentence structure to eliminate ambiguity. None of these changes, individually or collectively, alter the message of the Book of Mormon. (Why have changes been made in the printed editions of the Book of Mormon? Ensign, March 1987)
Why is it that no other writings have been found in the language of “Reformed Egyptian”, the supposed language of the Book of Mormon plates? Is there evidence that such a language really existed?
To be precise, "the reformed Egyptian" is not a language, but the term used by the Nephites for characters based on Egyptian writing. (See Mormon 9:32.)
Since we do not know exactly what this reformed Egyptian was, we cannot say whether it was used to record texts other than the Book of Mormon.
The Lord told them to.
Well good try....but the Federal Government did. Don't be silly!!
I'm off to go eat some food...with some fellow Christians...
I will get back to you....
Maybe I am just confused, as you suggested before.
I wrote 'IF' that passage ... because I believe your so-called scriptures (the book of Mormon) are nothing more than a poorly written novel patterned after the Bible, containing many quotes from the King James Bible and long passages the flow of which are straight out of OT stories.
The "If" comes from Paul, not the Book of Mormon. So your opinion of the Book of Mormon, while no doubt sincere, is irrelevant here.
I did not quote from Romans, I pointed to the passage from Paul which supports the concept of 'first you get saved, then you run the race, and after running the race you get the rewards for your performance'.
Well, I did quote from Romans. The other passages are good too. It seems perfectly clear to me that what we teach agrees with what Paul taught.
Sorry, Logo, that is blasphemous heresy. That you do not realize it contradicts what the Bible teaches is yet another sign of being under the influence of a demonic cult.
As the old saying goes, one man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy.
Maybe I am just confused, as you suggested before.
I wrote 'IF' that passage ... because I believe your so-called scriptures (the book of Mormon) are nothing more than a poorly written novel patterned after the Bible, containing many quotes from the King James Bible and long passages the flow of which are straight out of OT stories.
The "If" comes from Paul, not the Book of Mormon. So your opinion of the Book of Mormon, while no doubt sincere, is irrelevant here.
I did not quote from Romans, I pointed to the passage from Paul which supports the concept of 'first you get saved, then you run the race, and after running the race you get the rewards for your performance'.
Well, I did quote from Romans. The other passages are good too. It seems perfectly clear to me that what we teach agrees with what Paul taught.
Sorry, Logo, that is blasphemous heresy. That you do not realize it contradicts what the Bible teaches is yet another sign of being under the influence of a demonic cult.
As the old saying goes, one man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy.
No, I am perfectly happy with the race analogy. I was being overly pedantic by pointing that Paul writes about running the race in 1 Corinthians 9 and Hebrews 12, not Romans 8. Forgive me for showing off.
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