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How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ
Pure Mormonism ^
| October 31, 2010
| Alan Rock Waterman
Posted on 11/30/2010 9:14:06 AM PST by greyfoxx39
click here to read article
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To: mrreaganaut
41
posted on
12/02/2010 1:39:35 PM PST
by
reaganaut
(Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
To: Normandy
"I see a bright future."
Apparently, so did your Corporate President; the thing is, though, that only those on the upper levels of the Multi-Level Marketing scheme make the big bucks. Downline shmucks have blind faith in making it big, but there's a big difference between seeing a bright future and having one.
42
posted on
12/02/2010 3:00:07 PM PST
by
mrreaganaut
(ThereÂ’s only one solution to the problem of government incompetence, and thatÂ’s more government. /)
To: reaganaut
It is an interesting perspective. I assume that the author belongs to one of the “fundamentalist” Mormon sects. Legally, he seems to be claiming that churches ought not be recognized by the state as legal entities; however, it’s more of a theological claim than a legal one. Church buildings and graveyards must belong to someone or something for property tax purposes, for example. I suppose that individual members could keep title rather than gifting land to an under-the-radar church, but most people in America like the stability of the Congregational/corporate model. Whether those people are theologically correct is not a legal question.
43
posted on
12/02/2010 3:49:40 PM PST
by
mrreaganaut
(See the wild curelom herds at Zion National Park!)
To: mrreaganaut
“I assume that the author belongs to one of the ‘fundamentalist’ Mormon sects.”
Sheesh! Doesn’t anybody click on the original post anymore?
I’m the writer of the piece under discussion, and aligned with mainstream LDS. You’ll find, however, that I am not in thrall to the Brethren nor their constant bleating for obeisance.
Webheart, I emphasize with your frustration regarding all the italicizing, bolding, and increasing of the font size of my article. Although I understand Greyfox’s motivation for emphasizing certain points (and I appreciate him for reposting it!), those emphases are his, not mine. So Elsie, no need to put my words back into a word processor and straighten them all out again. You’ll find my post in it’s original form quite readable here, complete with a snappy portrait of Jesus as the Corporate Man:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-corporatism-has-undermined-and.html
Also, note that Greyfox did not post the entire article; in fact, my piece wasn’t called “The Vanishing LDS Church.” That was just a subtitle of one section. The full piece is titled “How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ.”
In there I have already addressed Mr. Reaganaut’s concerns about how a church can function absent corporation.
The very question is evidence of how thoroughly Americans have come to accept the premise that no business can function without being incorporated. Prior to the 20th century romance for such status, people did just fine as regular businesses, sole proprietors, partnerships, or simply companies.
Many churches today have come to the realization that they have been conned into thinking incorporation was necessary, and there is a rush now to dis-incorporate. You might want to ask those churches how they manage to pay their employees and engage in commerce with suppliers. They are able to do so because they operate as a church, an independent entity that does not seek permission from the State for its existence. They seem to be functioning just fine, as churches always did before America went corporate crazy a hundred years ago.
I would remind Mr. Reaganaut by the way, that churches don’t pay property taxes. At least those not subject to Caesar.
You can’t claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.
To: Rockwaterman; Elsie; webheart; greyfoxx39
Courtesy ping to FReepers mentioned in your reply, that weren’t pinged.
Btw, thanks for bumping the thread...
45
posted on
01/15/2011 11:06:00 AM PST
by
SZonian
(July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
To: Rockwaterman
I’m sorry, I clicked on the link to the book at Amazon. I apologize for assuming by the harshness of your (apparently excerpted) article that you were not mainstream LDS. I do agree that incorporation is immaterial to the purposes of the Church.
46
posted on
01/15/2011 3:27:00 PM PST
by
mrreaganaut
(See the Gadianton Robbers' Hideout at Zion National Park!)
To: Rockwaterman; SZonian; mrreaganaut
Welcome to FR, Mr. Waterman.
As you stated in your article, "I wanted to include the following information in the essay above, but the piece was already so long I didn't have the heart to put you readers through a longer stretch."......the excerpt I DID post is quite long, thus the emphasis on certain points. As I explained, a lot of readers are inclined to see a long post and rather than wade through it, will move on. I feel that the information you have made available is of interest to the readers of the mormon threads.
As to the "meat" of the article, I pull this quote from you...You cant claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist.
I'm sure I am speaking for many when I change it just a little.."You cant claim Christ as the head of your church if you have to first petition the State for permission to exist answer to a leadership consisting of businessmen and attorneys and a "prophet" who requires a "sustaining vote".
Council on the Disposition of the Tithes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While the Church employs an independent auditing department which provides an annual report to the Church[1], it has not published full financial reports since 1959.
The Council was established by church founder Joseph Smith, Jr. on 8 July 1838.[2] As of April 2009, the members of the Council are:
- Thomas S. Monson, President of the Church University of Utah. BA Business management
- Henry B. Eyring, First Counselor in the First Presidency Doctorate in Business Administration, Harvard Business School
- Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Second Counselor in the First Presidency started studying engineering at 18 but later continued in Business Administration in Cologne, Germany, graduated from the International Institute for Management Development,Lausanne, Switzerland.
- H. David Burton, Presiding Bishop University of Utah, BA economics, MA Business Administration from the University of Michigan
- Richard C. Edgley, First Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric BS, political science from Brigham Young University, MA business administration from Indiana University
- Keith B. McMullin, Second Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric ??
- Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Doctorate in educational administration from BYU, 1962
- L. Tom Perry, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Graduated from Utah State University in 1949 with a B.S. in business.
- Russell M. Nelson, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Medical Doctor with specialty as Cardiac Surgeon.
- Dallin H. Oaks, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Brigham Young University in accounting in 1954, and the University of Chicago Law School in 1957.
- M. Russell Ballard, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Prior to his call as a full-time Church leader, Elder Ballard had interests in the automotive, real estate, and investment businesses.
- Richard G. Scott, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles George Washington University, BS in Mechanical Engineering.
- Robert D. Hales, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles received degrees from the University of Utah and Harvard Business School.
- Jeffrey R. Holland, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles MA in Religious Education from BYU. Yale University, Ph.D in American Studies
- David A. Bednar, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles BA in communication, MA BYU in organizational communication, Doctorate in organizational behavior from Purdue University
- Quentin L. Cook, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Utah State University , BA in political science, Stanford Law School
- D. Todd Christofferson, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles BA from Brigham Young University, J.D. Duke University School of Law
- Neil L. Andersen, Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles MBA degree, Harvard Business School.
I invite you to stick around and join in the discussion here. We welcome new voices to the debate.
47
posted on
01/15/2011 5:20:36 PM PST
by
greyfoxx39
("Journalists" see no problem with fueling a mass panic over our "political discourse.")
To: greyfoxx39
48
posted on
01/15/2011 7:25:10 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Logophile
For a different take on church incorporation, I recommend Baptist Legal Update: Should Churches Be Incorporated? It ain't vanishing as much as it is fragmenting...
Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the "Rocky Mountain Saint" branch of Mormonism.
- The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the "Prairie Saint" movement. Although generally referred to as "Mormons," they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
- Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
- Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
- Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS' decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
- Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
- Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
- The Church of Christ "With The Elijah Message," established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
- Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members
- The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- the "RLDS Church". It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
- United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
- The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter's liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical "The Restoration Advocate" six times a year
49
posted on
01/15/2011 7:27:47 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Normandy
I see a lot of strength, unity, conviction and love. Yup; I'll go along with that conviction thing.
We see them being CONVICTED and sent to jail for white collar crime at a rate that is disporportionate for their numbers.
50
posted on
01/15/2011 7:29:34 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Saundra Duffy
The anti Mormons can go on their merry way spreading these horrible threads but it mattereth not.
Articles of Faith
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535541
- We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
- We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
- We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
- We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
- We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
- We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
- We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
- We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
- We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
- We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
- We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
- We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
- We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of PaulWe believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith |
51
posted on
01/15/2011 7:31:17 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Normandy
Yes, its a legal structure set up the laws of man, but the Church operates in the secular environment and has to deal with the laws of the lands in which it is organized. That doesnt in my mind invalidate in any way its divine mandate.
Oh? I'll bet the MORMON god will have something to say to those who has abandoned his Eternal Covenant of POLYGAMY found in D&C 132!
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages,
which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort,
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws,
and to use my influence with the members of the Church
over which I preside to have them do likewise.
Wilford Woodruff
President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
September 24th, 1890
52
posted on
01/15/2011 7:33:58 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: greyfoxx39
Oh, I don’t fault you at all for not excerpting more of my piece, Greyfox. It is most certainly very long, and as you mention, even the part you excerpted is looooong. Conciseness is not one of my better traits.
I hope nothing I said led you to think I was critical of your offering the excerpt, and I do understand your motivation for highlighting certain lines. But when I saw Elsie’s recommendation that it be put into a word processor and straightend out, I felt a mention of where it could be found would be helpful. I’m very grateful to you for plugging it.
(That piece, by the way, has had an astonishing run, getting more than 11,000 hits in its first twelve days and thousands more since, so I do believe Daymon Smith’s research has hit a chord with a lot of people.)
Thanks for the welcome. I was an early reader of FR, but parted ways during the Bush administration because I’m a traditional conservative (constitutionalist)and FR seemed to have skewed heavily toward a Neocon philosophy in those days.
I concur completely with your reworking of my quote above. And MrReaganaut, I’m not at all upset with you, either. Happy to have stumbled onto this forum and happy to be aboard with you, mates.
To: Elsie
Just as a point of interest, Elsie, during my research on my piece about polygamy I had some conversations with the authors of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy, who are former Reorgs but refuse to affiliate with the newly formed Community of Christ.
Pamela Price told me there are thousands of former Reorgs unhappy with the change, and particularly miffed that the CofC retains the rights to the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically to prevent those dissidents from claiming affiliation with that name. There’s some real bad feelings between traditional Reorgs and the Community of Christ. Gets their blood boiling just talking about it.
To: Rockwaterman
But when I saw Elsies recommendation that it be put into a word processor and straightend out, I felt a mention of where it could be found would be helpful. Im very grateful to you for plugging it. Actually, my suggestion was to WEBHEART, who seemed to find annoying the usage of various typographical mannerisms that make certain words and ideas standout from the REST!!
(I took it a bit PERSONAL! myself.)
55
posted on
01/16/2011 5:20:17 AM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: webheart
It takes away from the credibility of the author, and makes him look like a kook. I resemble that REMARK!!
56
posted on
01/16/2011 5:22:32 AM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Rockwaterman
Interesting info about the CoC and Reorgs.
I encourage you to post sections of "How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ" here that were not included in my thread and/or new thoughts you may have about the subject.
I left the mormon church in the sixties, so the organization I knew has changed so much that I hardly recognize it since "correlation".
57
posted on
01/16/2011 7:34:42 AM PST
by
greyfoxx39
("Journalists" see no problem with fueling a mass panic over our "political discourse.")
To: greyfoxx39
58
posted on
01/16/2011 6:57:15 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Elsie
59
posted on
01/17/2011 4:07:59 AM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: greyfoxx39
I take it that some critics have not read the Book of MORMON!
I started reading a paragraph and found it both humorous and very insightful, but the sentences were likewise extremely long. The entire book reads like this. Also, I'm well educated but I needed a dictionary frequently while reading this book. There were a few words in other languages tossed in as well. While reading, I didn't feel like getting up to go use an internet translator, so I missed a bit of the meaning at times. Overall, this book will require commitment if you're going to finish it. This book begins by explaining that it has been written by the author's evil twin, who has a very verbose and irritating writing style. True to these promises, the book was overly verbose- sometimes to the point of being quite painful- and some sections were difficult to understand due to the writing style. The style for the first several pages, with the computer plot, was so difficult that this section was almost impossible to follow. After that it improved somewhat. I found myself reading like an editor and identifying on nearly every page changes that could have been made that would have preserved the quirky style while making the book much more readable. I think the author would probably say that limited readability was often his intent, however, I got the sense that there were some areas in which there was less readability than he intended.
Samuel Clemens did!
All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few, except the elect have seen it or at least taken the trouble to read it.
I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me.
It is such a pretentious affair and yet so slow, so sleepy, such an insipid mess of inspiration.
It is chloroform in print.
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
The wicked take the truth to be hardLehis sons marry the daughters of IshmaelThe Liahona guides their course in the wildernessMessages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to timeIshmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
26 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.
60
posted on
11/07/2011 3:17:51 AM PST
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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