Are You More Blessed Than the Virgin Mary?

Desiring God ^ | 12/15/2010 | Jonathan Parnell

[RnMomof7]

In the sermon descriptively entitled, “That Hearing and Keeping the Word of God Renders a Person More Blessed Than Any Other Privilege That Ever God Bestowed on Any of the Children of Men,” Jonathan Edwards writes: The hearing and keeping the word of God brings the happiness of a spiritual union and communion with God. ‘Tis a greater blessedness to have spiritual communion with God and to have a saving intercourse with him by the instances of his Spirit and by the exercise of true devotion than it is to converse with God externally, to see the visible representation and manifestations of his presence and glory, and to hear his voice with the bodily ears as Moses did. For in this spiritual intercourse the soul is nigh unto and hath more a particular portion than in any external intercourse. ‘Tis more blessed to be spiritually related to Jesus Christ—to be his disciples, his brethren and the members—than to stand in the nearest temporal relation, than to be his brother or his mother. Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus, ed. Nancy Guthrie, 57.

[boatbums]

You ask, “Who posts and reads more Scripture on FR? Protestants?? or Catholics?? and you link to the Catholic Caucus listings of the standard missal used for daily Mass!LOL!!!

How in the world do you think that proves Catholics post or read more Scripture on FR? Have you gone back and counted how many hits you get on your daily posts? Does that prove who is actually reading them? Have you looked at every non-Catholic post on the RF and counted the scripture verses cited, the number of hits and the number of Scripture passages Protestants post in reply to them and/or the Catholic threads on the open RF??? Nice try, but I ain't fallin’ for it!!!

[diamond6]

As I was getting into bed another thought popped into my mind and I wanted to post it because I might not remember to in the morning.

I don’t know if you have ever heard of Fr. John Corapi, (he’s on t.v and the radio alot) but he always says that it is a Catholic’s responsibility to know their faith and that each Catholic should own a bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There should be no excuses. Many catholics don’t know their faith, nor do they try to edcuate themselves. Its a shame.

Again, another Fr. Corapi quote “Catholics are sitting on Fort Knox, most just don’t realize it.”

For a second time, really this time, goodnight. :)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I have noticed you personally seem to have an anecdote about some relative for every point you make. And funniest thing, the relative always ends up (sect unspecified) protestant.

Just lucky, I guess.

But I've told "anecdotes" about my RC FIL, so your conclusion is incorrect.

I find all those anecdotes difficult to believe.

Certainly your prerogative.

On the other hand, I have a number of them myself, but they are of no probitive value, so I’ll decline to use them.

I'm assuming you mean "probative" value, and you're probably right about your anecdotes being generally worthless. Certainly, you would know.

And thus we finally agree on something.

[diamond6]

With all due respect, you could be a little nicer in your response.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Well, Judith Anne, I'm afraid you're going to feel foolish, because I know your mantra is STUDY STUDY STUDY. But it came from the Catholic Caucus Daily Mass Reading for today. The December Devotion: The Immaculate Conception. Post 15.

Perhaps you need to heed your STUDY STUDY STUDY advice and READ your December Devotion.

Does it still sound to you like a 'made up thing'?? LOL! I'm sure by now you are wishing you had not said that....rofl

Get back to me with the "altars" today and the Throne in Heaven.

LOLOL.

Apparently Judith thinks a lot of things are "made up." (Just don't tell her any "anecdotes.")

[Judith Anne]

Well, thank you for letting me know.

[Judith Anne]

I think I’ll call that “gratuitous quote mining,” by the way. But congratulations, you managed to find a sentence I hadn’t read, out of the mass readings for today that were posted on FR by Salvation.

I didn’t read them because I attended mass, and the quote you referenced was not read there. So.....back to “study study study.” Otherwise I’m sure I will be humbled again by your amazing abilities.

Undoubtedly, I’ll miss a lot more. And undoubtedly, you (plural) will continue your (plural) tag-teaming.

Until then...;-D

[Cronos]

to think you were ever filled with grace as she was or is?

GB -- do note that CB says "as filled AS" -- now we know that Gabriel hailed Mary as kecharitome that is "full (to the brim) with grace"

We understand it as the angel speaking with the same awe when we see a beautiful vase -- he was awe-struck by God's creature mary who was filled with God's grace.

With due respect to you or anyone else, while you would be filled with grace like a cup that is full, Mary was like a cup overflowing, hence the expression of the angel. While of course you may get filled to your capacity with God's freely given grace, Mary was filled with it to overflowing -- making the container holy for a reason, a purpose -- I do not believe that any other created being would get as filled BY GOD as she was.

CB --> do note that we have many Protestants who believe the same as we do that Mary was filled with grace more than other creatures. Lutherans and Traditional Anglicans believe the same as we do, so painting all Protestants with a broad brush isn't quite correct.

[Judith Anne]

PS, Congratulations, you (plural) actually won one round of “gotcha.”

[Cronos]

The ark is a type of CHRIST placed in the Holy of Holies

Let's see --
the Ark of the Old Covenant

• a container for the Word written down by Moses.
• Not God, just a container, something created
• Not God, just a container, filled with the grace of God
• Not a sacrifice, not a teacher, not a preacher

Christ

• God and man
• 100% God and 100% man, not a container, not a phantom, not just a spirit, but God in flesh
• The Word incarnate, not a container for the Word
• Begotten not made, not created -- not a creature
• Preacher, teacher, Lord, God, not a container, not a created being

To say that the ark was Christ in any way is to deny the Divinity-Humanity nature of Christ.

Do you, Rn:

• Think that Jesus Christ was just a container for God, not actually God in flesh?
• Think that Jesus Christ was created by God, just a creature, not God?
• Think that Jesus Christ is akin to the ark, a created thing, not God?

Please do tell us if you believe the following:

We Believe in One Lord Jesus Christ
The Only Son of God
Eternally Begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light
True God from True God
Begotten, Not Made
One in Being (homoousia) with the Father
Through Him All Things Were Made

[Cronos]

RnMomof7: The ark is a type of CHRIST

Metmom (reply to a different post of Rn's): Doesn't that make us all arks of the covenant?

Take those two statements -- now either you, M, disagree with R's first statement or if you agree, then, your logic states that "us all" are types of Christ. Is that your logic, M?

[Cronos]

Sigh, G -- we've told you over and over again on multiple threads across the years that

1. We Christians here in Christ's Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church believe that Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Our God saved Mary, His created being, His mother.

2. We believe that Mary being a daughter of Adam and Eve would have been faithed to have the same "stain" from Original Sin. you believe in that "stain", too, correct?

3. Mary in the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) when she is bearing Jesus Christ -- NOTE: Jesus has not been born yet, He has not yet (in our space-time) been the sacrifice on the Cross she says my spirit rejoices in God, my right NOW Saviour

4. Note: Mary does not say "my spirit rejoices in God, my future Saviour", but she says "in Deo salvatore meo,", "my current Saviour",

5. Mary clearly indicates that God (Jesus Christ) has already saved her. How is that possible if he has not yet been on the Cross or even been born yet?

6. This very clearly indicates that Mary needed a savior too and her Savior saved Her somehow even before He was born

7. The only conclusion is that somehow before His work on the Cross, Christ already saved his created being, His mother, mary.

8. The logical conclusion is He protected her from sin and in fact "saved" her from sin even before He was born.

[Cronos]

Though of course, the question is when is the end-times era? In the first century people believed it was when Christ died, the Apostles were crucified, Jerusalem was destroyed.

Then people felt that when the Western Roman Empire fell in 430 AD when the last Western Emperor abdicated and barbarians Germanics were rulers (the Visigoths and Lombards who ruled Spain-France and Italy respectively were Arians, disbelieving the divinity of Christ) -- people felt that those were the end times

Then if you read literature from 999 AD, again people felt it was the end of the world.

The during the reformatting people felt the same

Then during the horrors of the World Wars

Then at the turn of the millenium, etc. etc.

[Cronos]

Would be excellant to note that throughout Mary's whole exaltation she lifted up God...not herself. Count the very references to Him..over and over she magnifies HIS NAME...and how little she speaks of herself...and when she does it is always from the perspective of who He is and what He has done

Exactly -- as I said in my post above commenting on Mary's praise to God her Savior AT THAT point, even before He was born.

That is why during Divine Litury, Mass we have all praise and glory to God, The Father Son and Holy Spirit. We read His Word (OT, NT, Psalms, Proverbs, Gospels, Epistles), we meditate on His Word, we celebrate His life, we mourn His death, we remember in awe His sacrifice for us, we glorify in His resurrection and we remember that He will come again.

The Mass is completely in remembrance of Christ: life, death, resurrection, glorification of God alone.

[circlecity]

"And I've heard all the words used to discribe the behavior, and have seen many who practice this behavior...but it is worship and idolatry regardless of the false reasoning given to do so"

You bet. When one prays TO anyone other than the persons of the Trinity (as opposed to praying FOR) then it's idolatry.

[Cronos]

smvoice: Yet no one knows exactly what the RavingCalvinistCrowd believes for sure. No one knows exactly what they’ve sold their soul for.

True, no one know exactly what all the fractious followers of Calvin (as you so correctly call them, Raving Calvinist Crowd/Cult) believe in for sure -- no one knows exactly what they've sold their soul for (I note a singular correctly denoting that most of the RCC calvinists are groups of dwindling to just one/two souls)

you are so right that these followers of Calvin or RCCs are strange

[Cronos]

there wouldn't be so many with the exact same (alleged) errors about doctrine.

1. you have the CCC to refer for doctrine. There are no allegations there. It's far more well-documented and for ready reference than the entire list of your group's beliefs (of which we don't even know if it adheres to the Nicene Creed which encapsulates the definition of Christian belief very well)

2. There are 1 billion -- about 10 to 100 million times more souls than in your group, so of course there is far more difference of opinon than in one Branch-Davidian type group

3. People may have their own opinions on things, but there is only one doctrine documented. If someone believes incorrectly, it the duty of others to point it out to them and then for those who believe incorrectly to change. We don't have shunning -- though in my personal opinion it should be done for high-profile failures like Pelosi -- it is next to impossible to do with such a large congregation to the lowest level on the ground to shun. The big targets should be made examples of, yes.

[Cronos]

All synods or councils, since the Apostles' times, whether general or particular, may err; and many have erred. Therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith, or practice; but to be used as a help in both. (Westminster Confession of Faith)

And yet in those councils, since Apostolic times there were decisions like preaching to Gentiles, not following Mosaic dietary, circumscion etc. rules, collecting canon, declaring the doctrine of the Trinity, declaring Jesus Christ as God, eternally begotten of the Father, etc. etc. -- if the Westminister C plans to doubt every single one of these, it is analogous to someone arguing first that calculus rules are wrong, then that algebraic formulae are wrong and finally doubting why 1+1 = 2.

[Cronos]

there’s hardly a ...I knew that cracked a Bible

Look around you -- on this forum you have a couple of dozen pretty active Catholics that know quite a bit and read the Bible regularly. And there are many more silent Catholic readers on this forum and many, many more CAtholics in the real world who do far more than "crack open" a Bible but diligently study The Word of God and grew deeper in Christ, in His Catholic Faith.

[Cronos]

Explaining and expanding on my question to you, Rn:

• Think that Jesus Christ was just a container for God, not actually God in flesh?
• Think that Jesus Christ was created by God, just a creature, not God?
• Think that Jesus Christ is akin to the ark, a created thing, not God?

Please do tell us if you believe the following:

We Believe in One Lord Jesus Christ
The Only Son of God
Eternally Begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light
True God from True God
Begotten, Not Made
One in Being (homoousia) with the Father
Through Him All Things Were Made

Expanding on this:

1. Jesus Christ is the Lord of all. The title Lord means that Jesus is master of all, and has connotations of deity, since the Hebrew word adonai and Greek word kyrios (both meaning Lord) were applied to Yahweh in the Old Testament.
2. Jesus is in a unique relationship with God the Father. While Hebrew kings were sons of God symbolically (see Psalm 2), Jesus is the only Son of God by nature.
   the Son shares the essential nature of God with the Father. Since God is eternal, the Son, being begotten of God, is also eternal. The Son is often called the Only-Begotten God in early Christian literature, including in John 1:18 in many manuscripts.
3. God the Son exists in relation to God the Father. The Son is not the Father, but they both are God. Just as a torch is lit one to another, the Father and Son are distinct, but both light
4. God the Son is not a half-god or inferior to God the Father. God the Son is fully and utterly God, distinct from the Father, yet not divided from the Father.
   Some groups today (Jehovah's Witnesses) and in the past (Arians) have suggested that God created Jesus like God would an angel. THIS IS WRONG
   God the Father and God the Son are equally divine, united in substance and will. Father and Son share the same substance or essence of divinity. That is, the Father and Son both share the qualities and essential nature that make one in reality God.
   
   This is what we Christians believe.
   
   Jesus was not a creature, was not created like the ark, Jesus was not a container for God. To suggest this is utterly wrong and in fact blasphemous.