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Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ
LDS.org ^ | Dennis B. Neuenschwander

Posted on 01/02/2011 5:46:30 PM PST by Paragon Defender

Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ

By Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander Of the Seventy

 

 

 

Dennis B. Neuenschwander, “Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Jan 2009, 16–22

Adapted from a presentation to the Seventy.

 

 

 

In the Doctrine and Covenants we read that Joseph Smith was “called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ” (D&C 20:2). The call of an Apostle is first to witness or testify of Jesus Christ. Old Testament prophets testified of His coming. The New Testament Apostles bore personal witness of Christ’s being and of the absolute reality of His Resurrection. This apostolic witness was the basis of their teaching. “Ye shall be witnesses unto me” (Acts 1:8) was Jesus’s instruction to the original Twelve. Peter testified on the day of Pentecost to the Jews who had gathered “out of every nation” (Acts 2:5) that “this Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses” (Acts 2:32). Similarly, Paul wrote to the Corinthians that Jesus “was seen of me also” (1 Corinthians 15:8). The sure witness of Christ’s being and the reality of His Resurrection is the first pillar of apostolic testimony.

The second pillar is centered on the Savior’s redemptive and saving power. Peter teaches that to the Lord “give all the Prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Without these twin pillars of testimony concerning Christ, there could be no Apostle. Such testimonies are born of experience, divine command, and instruction. For example, Luke writes that Christ showed Himself to the Apostles “alive after his passion … being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3).

How does the Prophet Joseph Smith fit into these apostolic requirements? The answer is “Perfectly.”

The First Vision

Joseph Smith’s apostolic instruction began in 1820. Pondering the questions of religion, he soon found that there was no way to reason or argue one’s opinion to an authoritative conclusion concerning the correctness of the various churches or their doctrines. Short of a divine manifestation, young Joseph could add only one more opinion to the already existing “war of words and tumult of opinions” (Joseph Smith—History 1:10). But Joseph’s questions on religion were answered by the personal and physical manifestation of God the Father and His divine and living Son, Jesus Christ—an experience referred to as the First Vision.

Like that of the original Apostles, Joseph’s experience with Deity was direct and personal. There was no need for the opinion of others or the deliberations of a council to define what he saw or what it came to mean to him. Joseph’s vision was at first an intensely personal experience—an answer to a specific question. Over time, however, illuminated by additional experience and instruction, it became the founding revelation of the Restoration.

As apostolic as this manifestation of Christ’s being, existence, and Resurrection was to Joseph Smith, it was not the only thing Jesus wanted to teach him. The boy Joseph’s first lesson arose from the manifestation of Christ’s absolute, omnipotent, and divine power. Joseph learned firsthand at least one meaning of the redeeming and saving power of Christ when he prayed in the grove. As he began to pray, “Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction” (Joseph Smith—History 1:15). With every bit of energy Joseph had, he began to call upon God to deliver him from the grasp of this enemy.

“At the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction … , I saw a pillar of light. …

“It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).

Joseph Smith’s confrontation with the adversary is reminiscent of an experience Moses had, about which the Prophet would learn some few years later. Unlike the boy Joseph, however, Moses saw God’s greatness first and then was confronted with the power of the adversary before being delivered from his influence. (See Moses 1.)

The difference in the order of events is significant. Moses was already far into maturity and had much knowledge and influence prior to this event. By displaying His magnificent power to Moses before he faced the adversary, the Lord helped Moses put his life into perspective. After experiencing God’s glory, Moses said, “Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed” (Moses 1:10). This incident enabled Moses to withstand the temptations of the adversary that followed.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, was an inexperienced young man, who in his lifetime would repeatedly face adversarial power and the overwhelming problems it brings. By facing the adversary first, then being saved from his assault by the appearance of the Father and the Son, Joseph learned this indelible lesson: as great as the power of evil might be, it must always withdraw with the appearance of righteousness.

This lesson was critical in Joseph’s apostolic education. He needed this knowledge not only because of the personal trials that lay ahead of him but also because of the overwhelming opposition he would face in founding and directing the Church.

The boy Joseph went into the grove seeking wisdom, and wisdom he received. His apostolic instruction had begun. Among the great apostolic lessons of this First Vision were both the physical nature of the Savior and Heavenly Father and the initial and fundamental lessons relating to Their power—each a pillar of apostolic testimony.

The Book of Mormon

Joseph Smith’s early apostolic instruction continued with his translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon gave Joseph access to “the fulness of the everlasting Gospel” (Joseph Smith—History 1:34), principles that were necessary to understand even prior to the organization of the Church. The Prophet was introduced to numerous “plain and most precious” (1 Nephi 13:26) prophetic and apostolic testimonies regarding the Savior, all of which served as models for him.

Indeed, the Book of Mormon prophets employ over 100 titles in their teachings of Christ, each of which helped Joseph understand the Savior’s divine role.1 By virtue of these teachings, Joseph Smith became intimately acquainted with ancient prophets, giving him insight into the divine purpose of his responsibilities.

The Book of Mormon illuminates the universality of Christ’s Atonement. The Savior’s holy sacrifice is not confined to the borders of the Holy Land of His day or even restricted to the apostolic world of the original Twelve. The Atonement encompasses all of God’s creations—past, present, and future. What an impression Jacob’s teaching of the “infinite atonement” (2 Nephi 9:7) must have made on the mind of young Joseph, especially in contrast to Christian teachings at the time.

The Book of Mormon also introduces the universality of the Resurrection and other doctrines relating to it. Discourses on this doctrine by Lehi, Jacob, King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma, Amulek, Samuel the Lamanite, and Moroni are all rich sources of instruction.

During the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Prophet received additional valuable personal instruction concerning the redemptive and saving power of Christ. In 1828 Martin Harris persuaded Joseph to lend him the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript. When Martin Harris lost those pages, the Prophet felt an enormous despair.2 His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recorded that Joseph exclaimed: “Oh, my God! … All is lost! all is lost! What shall I do? I have sinned—it is I who tempted the wrath of God. … How shall I appear before the Lord? Of what rebuke am I not worthy from the angel of the Most High?”3

For well over a month the Lord left Joseph in this terrible condition of remorse.4 Then came relief and the apostolic lesson. The Lord told Joseph:

“The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught. …

“For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him” (D&C 3:1, 4).

These words carefully describe what Joseph Smith had been experiencing. He had learned the exacting nature of the apostolic call and to whom the Apostle, at all cost, owes his loyalty. “Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words,” Joseph was told, “yet you should have been faithful” (D&C 3:7–8). Joseph Smith had lost access to the plates for a season and had been taught an invaluable lesson. Subsequently, the plates were returned, and his position as translator restored.

How critical were the lessons provided by the translation of the Book of Mormon as Joseph Smith grew in his apostolic calling! The Book of Mormon is the “keystone of our religion”5 because it contains so many prophetic testimonies of Christ and stands as a tangible witness of the Restoration.

Continuing Revelation and Scripture

After finishing the translation of the Book of Mormon in 1829 and organizing the Church in 1830, Joseph Smith had the opportunity to receive continuing apostolic education through the process of translating other scripture. This included three years of translating the Bible and, beginning in 1835, translating the book of Abraham. Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible expanded his understanding of the role of Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles. It also resulted in additional revelation, namely the book of Moses.

The book of Moses provided the Prophet with important knowledge about the Savior’s ministry, including His role in the Creation. “The Lord spake unto Moses, saying: … I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things” (Moses 2:1). Further, He said, “And worlds without number have I created; … and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).

The book of Moses clarified Christ’s relationship to the Father in the premortal existence and reinforced the Prophet’s understanding of the ascendant power of righteousness. One of the most beautiful of all the apostolic lessons that came to Joseph Smith in this revelation was the confirmation of God’s love. It was so different from the harsh, unforgiving, and judgmental personage so many believed God to be; the book of Moses reveals a God of infinite compassion. Enoch saw that the “God of heaven … wept” (Moses 7:28) over those who would not receive Him. Wishing to know how it was possible, Enoch was given an answer that has a familiar biblical feel to it: “I [have] given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father. … Wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?” (Moses 7:33, 37; see also Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37–39).

Through the translation of the book of Moses, the Prophet also became more acquainted with the redeeming and saving power of the Savior. As the Lord said, this earth was created “by the word of my power” (Moses 1:32) for the purpose of bringing “to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Many long years before the Savior taught Thomas and the Twelve that “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6), He revealed to Moses that “this is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time” (Moses 6:62).

The First Vision in the grove, the translation of the Book of Mormon, the revision of the Bible, the revelation of the book of Moses, and the translation of the book of Abraham laid the basic foundation of the Church, largely through the rapidly expanding knowledge and testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith relating to Jesus Christ.

Revelations given to him and compiled in the Doctrine and Covenants contain a wealth of knowledge concerning the Savior. One could research the numerous topics and cross-references of the Topical Guide and Guide to the Scriptures referring to Jesus Christ and still not understand the breadth of information on the Savior that the Prophet Joseph Smith brought to the world. I am grateful to know that Jesus was “in the beginning with the Father” (D&C 93:21). I am grateful to know that He “suffered these things for [me], that [I] might not suffer if [I] would repent” (D&C 19:16).

My Testimony of What the Prophet Revealed

I am grateful for yet one other thing about the Savior’s ministry that stirs my soul deeply. From studying the promises of Malachi, Moroni’s initial visit with Joseph, the Savior’s words to the Nephites, and the visit of Elijah in the Kirtland Temple, I learn that God loves His children and has provided a way for each to return to Him. I know of no doctrine more just, no teaching that gives more hope than that of redemption of the dead. I am so grateful for the revelations that teach me that the Savior’s Atonement reaches to those who have lived, loved, served, and hoped for a better day yet never heard of Jesus or had the opportunity to embrace His gospel. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to convert me to the gospel if I knew nothing else at all. Here, at least for me, is the ultimate testimony of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

What, then, can be said of the incomparable saving power of Christ? That which Joseph Smith learned in the Sacred Grove about the power of righteousness overcoming evil foreshadows the final scene. So reveals the Lord:

“I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

“Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment” (D&C 19:2–3).

Our own testimonies of the Savior are framed by the testimony and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Is it any wonder then that the Prophet taught that “the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”6

Joseph Smith’s apostolic testimony of the divine reality and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as well as his knowledge of the redemptive and saving power of the Savior, can best be seen by the Prophet’s own beautiful, powerful, and succinct witness:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).

How grateful I am for the apostolic call of Joseph Smith.

 

 

 

Notes

1. See Book of Mormon Reference Companion, ed. Dennis L. Largey (2003), 457–58.

2. See Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, ed. Preston Nibley (1958), 128–29.

3. History of Joseph Smith, 128, 129.

4. The 116 pages were lost in June 1828. In July Joseph Smith received what is now section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In September the plates were returned to the Prophet. See the historical introductions to D&C 3; 10.

5. History of the Church, 4:461.

6. History of the Church, 3:30.

 

 

 

 

 

 


TOPICS: Breaking News; Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: braking; cult; heresy; inman; lds; lies; mormon; notbreakingnews; propaganda; religion
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To: TaraP
...I am just speaking of an agressive witnessing method....

There is hardly ANY 'witnessing' going on here: it is ALMOST 100% heresy exposing and false teaching REBUKING.

1,661 posted on 01/04/2011 8:17:09 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Syncro

>Your list of Apostles is a list of straw men.

It is not my list; it is history. I merely call attention to the fact that the word “apostle” has more meanings that only the 12 who traveled with Jesus. The word has been used throughout history by various churches to describe someone their religion considers to have been “called” to be a messenger. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29

>In the first century , there were 12 Apostles, 12 disciples.

You are incorrect; there were at least fourteen apostles. You overlook Matthias, who was chosen to replace Judas. You also overlook Paul, who became an apostle after the death of the Savior.

You are also incorrect about the disciples. Jesus had scores, perhaps even hundreds of disciples during his lifetime.
Quote — “The term apostle ... should not be confused with a disciple (who is a follower or a student who learns from a “teacher”).” See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29

>Your question at the end of your missive is a moot point...

My questions were directly specifically to Mr. Robinson.It is for him to decide whether he considers them moot or wishes to answer them.


1,662 posted on 01/04/2011 8:23:28 PM PST by Clique
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To: restornu
Then again maybe it would be best not to have a Religion Forum and just unite on the Godly principles that unites us as a people to keep the constitution strong.

BEGONE, HERETIC!

1,663 posted on 01/04/2011 8:28:51 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Elsie

>BEGONE, HERETIC!
= = = = =

Why do Christians on this thread persist in name calling?

Has civil discourse ceased among conservatives?

Are Freepers becoming like the “progressives,” who love to shout down anyone who doesn’t agree 100% with their liberal ideas?

Please, people... Let’s not abandon courtesy entirely.


1,664 posted on 01/04/2011 8:40:24 PM PST by Clique
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To: Clique

Oops. I forgot the Apostle Barnabas. (Acts 14:14)

Sorry.


1,665 posted on 01/04/2011 8:45:20 PM PST by Clique
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To: Godzilla
Now du, it was explained quite clearly with all the other passages I cited in the synoptics.

There is a Huge difference between quoting scripture, and interpreting scripture. You are doing the latter.

Your "hints" are you interpreting scripture to mean what you want it to say.

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Now try real hard du to apply some common sense.

Now try real hard and stick to the scriptures when you try to tell me what God thinks because Truly, you can't read his mind.

Jesus never said that the first marriage was in force. Tell me Godzilla, is it Adultery to have sex if neither person has been married? (Don't quibble about fornication)

if all sex outside of marriage is adultery your analogy falls apart right there.

You go on for a while about breaking marriage bonds, which I am not saying Polygamy is doing, in fact it does not.

The perverted sense of our society today is not God's standard now is it Du.

Agreed, thus modern law cannot be used to bolster scripture and scripture must stand on it's own as the moral authority.

It is sooooo funny to watch you squirm and squiggle to get out of a jam du. What you or they 'believe' external to the scripture doesn't count for squat. But adding to the bible is just what mormons like to do anyway now isn't it.

It is funny to watch you accuse me of what you are doing (it's called projection) I don't CARE about polygamy, I don't intend to have more than one wife. You do care, because if polygamy is biblical, you just lost a Cause célèbre for condemning Joseph Smith.

Jesus never mentions polygamy, not once. He condemns divorce and anyone who remarries is committing polygamy. Period end of story the Catholics have this one absolutely right in theory, in practice, well we all know the Kennedy's seem to get annulments years and grown children later... But that is another discussion

Polygamy was specifically authorized several times in the bible and never condemned except for twisted "personal" interpretations.

I asked if the Indians were breaking the law by having more than one squaw, and what law that would be...

If they were under federal jurisdiction at the time - most likely, dependent upon the LAW and treaty with the tribes. But hey, we are not talking about lamanites here du - we are talking about an American citizen and THOSE laws he engraved into mormon doctrine that mormons were REQUIRED to follow the law of the land.

Did I say what time period? I could have a lot of fun here, but that is not my purpose. So Indians are under federal jurisdiction for marriage? LOL! Why do you think they don't pay taxes? Why can't states collect sales tax on all those cigarrets? Because they are granted a similar charter to the charter Nauvoo was granted. They don't grant those anymore, but the state law did not apply to Nauvoo and there was no federal law. so it was not "Illegal". No matter how you twist, the truth just won't bend.

As for the Nauvoo expositor, polygamy was not the only thing they were saying, today such a rag would be sued out of existence almost as fast as the city council ordered it destroyed in that day.

The Nauvoo expositor is a red herring anyway, it has no bearing on the Biblical legitimacy of Polygamy, and actually, Neither does Illinois law.

You keep reminding me of the cartoon character who steps from one rake to another getting smacked over and over.

Wrong again Du - he was also in voilation of state laws as well. Smith's polygamous marriages occurred in Illinois in the early 1840s. The Illinois Anti-bigamy Law enacted February 12th, 1833 clearly stated that polygamy was illegal.

Bigamy, simply put is having more than one legally married spouse.

I believe it was you who argued on another thread that they were not legal marriages and went on to show that no marriage license was procures so the marriages were not recognized outside of Nauvoo. You guys can't have it both ways, either they were legal marriages, or they weren't. Did Nauvoo have the jurisdiction to marry people or did it not? If it did, then it had jurisdiction, if it did not then the marriages were not legal and since no children of Joseph's exist from any wife but Emma, you'll have a hard tome proving carnal relations were happening.

Then for the next rake, the JOD discourse (in volume 20 no less) is well after Joseph was martyred and the Exodus from Nauvoo. So it has no bearing on the happenings in Nauvoo.

Getting tired of digging your self in deeper du?

Nope, enjoying watching you step back and forth between the rakes.

So, marriages in Nauvoo, which had a charter that allowed them to enact and enforce their own laws not with standing, the temple marriages for which there were no offspring and no marriage certificate are evidence to you that Joseph was a bad man.

I'm going to quote to you from a site that will surprise you, Light Planet an anti Mormon site has a copy of the Nauvoo city charter. here is a quotation:
One important provision stated that the Nauvoo Council could pass any ordinances not repugnant to the constitutions of the United States or that of Illinois. This, in effect, empowered the Nauvoo body to stand in a federated position with the Illinois General Assembly. Ordinances passed by the Nauvoo Council could be in direct violation or disregard of state law and still be valid in Nauvoo, provided they did not conflict with specific powers granted by the federal and state constitutions. Leaders of the city militia, known as the Nauvoo Legion, and the university trustees could also pass laws, limited only by state and federal constitutions.
There was no constitutional amendment prohibiting polygamy. There still is no constitutional amendment that prohibits polygamy.

Nauvoo had the right to have polygamous marriages, and even bigamous ones if it wanted . and all you r pouting and bleating about bigamy laws that weren't enacted until later and quotations from people in Utah won't change the FACT that Joseph smith did not break any laws against having more than one wife.

All your bleating and interpreting won't change the FACT that Jesus never condemned polygamy, only Divorce.

all your simpering and whimpering won't change the FACT that Polygamy was approved of by God in the Bible, and the additional FACT that God does not change, therefore if he approved of it often in the Bible, it's not going to be a sin now.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." -- John Adams

The facts are against you, you keep quoting things that are out of time for attacking Joseph, the Bible does not agree with your interpretation, and you keep inserting things and then accusing me of doing so. Again, you lost... again.

Polygamy is Biblical, this is a fact.

Denying facts is insanity.

Delph
1,666 posted on 01/04/2011 8:48:23 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: restornu
As far as I am concern there is no longer a need for a LDS Caucus thread.

There are many who feel that way.

They ignore the caucus LDS threads.

If you feel they are not needed, then you can not post to them.

One thing would be nice is if those who opposed the LDS would clarify their thread title(Anti LDS) So other posters are not confused and blame the LDS for all those non-descript Open threads

I think that should be up to those that post the threads.

I would prefer (Mainstream Historical Jesus Truth Thread.)

IMO FR posters are smart enough to discern between posts by Christian posters vs Mormon posters.

I also think as an LDS when reading the title Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ it would not register in our minds the way others would perceived it.

Of course it wouldn't. That's part of the problem.

Christians would see it as saying that Smith is an Apostle of the historical Biblical Jesus Christ, and for Mormons it would register however LDS see it

Perhaps you could respond to my post #872 to you the other day.

Many of us would like to know how Mormons feel about the official writings of the LDS belief system in the areas sited in that post.

It would clear up many of the misunderstandings.

Thank you.

1,667 posted on 01/04/2011 8:48:33 PM PST by Syncro
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To: Godzilla
No there isn't du - what you 'teach' is a placebo effect along with reinforcement of behavior - common with controlling cults.

What I teach is Biblical, what you teach is Secular.

Du you are now misrepresenting what I have specifically stated in the past - but then that is par for the course when the exchange is going poorly for you.

Actually, it's not. you tell people to rely on your analysis, and then you spend lots of time at it. praying in faith is not something I have ever seen you seriously promote.

as for things "going poorly" you're projecting again.

Delph
1,668 posted on 01/04/2011 8:52:20 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Syncro

Many of us would like to know how Mormons feel about the official writings of the LDS belief system in the areas sited in that post.

It would clear up many of the misunderstandings.

Thank you.

***

In all due respect how would it clear up any misunderstandings sinse your mind seems to be already made up!


1,669 posted on 01/04/2011 8:52:31 PM PST by restornu
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Comment #1,670 Removed by Moderator

To: MHGinTN
I found nothing of value or import in your post, but I don't want you to feel sleighed that I didn't respond, so this is as meaningful, actually more so than your post.

Delph

1,671 posted on 01/04/2011 8:59:38 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Syncro

BTW It is amazing one how you can speak for my personal experiences that many Freepers think those non-descript open post come from someone else, when in so many of their replies they are blaming the LDS for all those endless daily barge of LDS threads.

Do you think Free Republic is a Religion Forum or a place to defend the constitution?

Many, many over the years have been zotted from all faiths who original purpose was a Free Republic.


1,672 posted on 01/04/2011 9:00:30 PM PST by restornu
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To: Elsie
So the NEGATIVE stuff comes straight from LDS presses - why is that upsetting MORMONs so?

Typical...

The negative posts are coming from anti Mormons, not the LDS presses, you might want to look at the little names at the top of the posts in bold. you might make some new friends.

Delph
1,673 posted on 01/04/2011 9:02:35 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Religion Moderator

Please forgive me for incorrect spelling of Mormon. I just noticed I had done that and it was probably a Fruedian slip.


1,674 posted on 01/04/2011 9:09:10 PM PST by TiaS
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To: Clique

"Your list of Apostles is a list of straw men."

It is not my list; it is history

Nit picking, you know what I meant.

In the first century , there were 12 Apostles, 12 disciples.

You are incorrect; there were at least fourteen apostles. You overlook Matthias, who was chosen to replace Judas. You also overlook Paul, who became an apostle after the death of the Savior.

That's immaterial to my point. If it is that important to you, what about Barnabas?

Obviously the history lesson is superfluous to this conversation, but thanks anyway.

My point was that that the 12 originals were unique.

Disciples and Apostles.

Yes I know, I didn't say original, and that gave you the opening to continue the history lesson, not pertainate to this communication.

The point is that Christians relate to the original Apostles as being Apostles of Jesus Christ, not someone who declares himself such with no overseeing authority so as to give credence to a false belief system.

As far as the question to Mr. Robinson (I was only speaking about one of them, not both) it's much too hypothetical imo.

Catholics would never post a title like you suggested.

But good luck, maybe you will get a hypothetical answer!

1,675 posted on 01/04/2011 9:09:27 PM PST by Syncro
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To: TiaS

No problem.


1,676 posted on 01/04/2011 9:17:19 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: reaganaut
Biblical not a man made doctrine. Sorry to burst your bubble. And ONE God means ONE God, not 3 gods united in purpose. You sound like Clinton.

Not according to Jesus and the analogy he drew between his and God the Father's oneness and the oneness the disciples should have, it's in John 17 in case you actually care to look it up (Don't go there it's a trap! the Mormons have edited your bible in your house!!!!)

And God does not teach man can become Gods that is a lie from Satan.

Satan did indeed tell Eve that she would be "as the Gods knowing Good from evil" The thing about Satan is you can't even rely on him to lie all the time. God confirms in Genesis that Eve had become as the Gods knowing good from evil. Prove me wrong. Try looking at Genesis 3:5,22 you'll see that God says Satan's promise came true, well one of them. I guess he was willing to tell them a truth to get them to swallow (pun intended) the lie that they wouldn't die.

Delph “Just for the record, believing in Christ is a work”

It is a work of GOD, not a work of us. If you stick your hand out to receive a gift, did you earn it? Is it a work? No. (John 6:29).

LOL! I don't think you are applying that correctly, but believe what you wish, I really am not here to try to convince you to do anything but pray more.

And I know much more about Mormonism than you ever will. And I know more about the Bible than you do as well, that is obvious.

ROTFLOL!!!

Now, not only can you read and comprehend what is in my mind now, you can extrapolate the future. So, what number am I thinking of? (BTW, unless this rule has changed too, mind reading is not allowed on the forums)

I love how the LDS keep taking James out of context and ignore the rest of the New Testament. They manipulate the Bible and twist scripture for their own ends THEN TURN AROUND AND SAY IT IS CORRUPT!

You know, when I talk to you, I know exactly what you mean!!!

BTW, I am never afraid of anything Mormon, Satan no longer has power over me.

You know, just when you stop worrying about being misled is when you are in the most danger, but have it your way.

Delph
1,677 posted on 01/04/2011 9:18:51 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: caww
satan said he'd become a God too

There is a big difference between relying on Jesus' grace to save you and trying to break down the doors of heaven with a battering ram.

Delph
1,678 posted on 01/04/2011 9:21:35 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Syncro

>Catholics would never post a title like you suggested.

I would not be shocked or offended if a Catholic wrote an article titled “Pope Benedict XVI is an Apostle of Jesus Christ.”

It is my understanding that Catholics consider the Pope to be the successor to the Apostle Peter. Whether I agree with that premise or not doesn’t matter. My opinion shouldn’t keep them from posting such an article in their caucus.

In fact, I might find the article interesting and informative. But either way, that title certainly wouldn’t offend me.

Would it offend you?


1,679 posted on 01/04/2011 9:22:48 PM PST by Clique
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To: Godzilla
Delph We have one God. We worship the God of Abraham and of Issac and of Jacob.

Godzilla And what is the name of that 'God' Du? Jehovah? Elohim, Adoni, El Shaddai? Name him.

I AM

He has many other names as well.

Don't ask me to list them for you, do some research yourself.

Delph
1,680 posted on 01/04/2011 9:24:41 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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