The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Cronos]

Kosta :On the other hand, if someone's opinions can make someone lose or find faith, then it is man, not God, who determines other man's salvation or perdition, which is not what Christians believe. Rather, they would say it is God's will. What do you say? Who determines if you should believe, God or man?

That opens up a question -- is it worth debating or even telling anyone the nature of God to convert them to one's opinion?

If we take the strict route you have outlined, then the conclusions are:

1. No
2. AND, this "god" is a remote, impersonal god who has left the universe and gone away and doesn't really bother

However, the difference is that well most religions (except Buddhism and Jainism), believe in an interventionist God, a word who talks through the prophets, who takes an "active interest"

If one agrees in an "actively interested God" as opposed to a "bye,bye, I'm outta here God", then the actively interested God can use humans as tools, so someone's opinions are the TOOL that makes someone lose or find faith. Hence that tools actions signify God's will

Take the example of a hammer -- the hammer directs the nail (gives it, its opinion), yet whether the nail follows through, or bends or whatever is determined by the wielder of the hammer (God).

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Looks like they’ve unleashed the hounds.

You’d think they would run out of cars to chase.

[eyedigress]

I dropped him like a bad habit long ago.

[caww]

Nah, he has a choice to believe or not.

[Cronos]

The description of his demeanour seems accurate, yet every statue of him I've ever seen has him as very above average height. Why is this? Are the Reformers attempting to make up for shortfalls in his theology? Does he come up short in the brains department? Does he not measure up to Christianity? Is there less than meets the eye? Perhaps there is no more than a tiny tidbit inside a gigantic ego.

Yup, giant ego, no wonder we have those who think that Calvinism = Christianity

[Cronos]

Unleashed the hounds! Ah, this is not the PCA/OPC's dream of a police state like Calvin's Geneva.

Christianity is not limited to Calvin's egotistical philosophy

[Cronos]

He has the free will to believe or not.

as I said, it raises the question: Does it make sense talking/discussing religion or should we say "God will come and choose his own"

In a way I see it as a contrarian (almost Socratic) way of arguing FOR free will.

Let me elaborate -- if there is no free will and there is double-predestination, then talkings, discussing etc. is fruitless -- all is predetermined and we need not think to debate, argue etc. -- we might as well shut down FR's RF :)

however, if free will does exist, then us being instruments of God glorifies GOD as it is not our words that save, but God workign through us that saves.

This is basically the concept of the interventionist God.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

unleashed the hounds?

opinions is?

Someone's posting past their bedtime.

[kosta50]

In light of aforementioned comment, it again raises the question of exactly what is the purpose of kosta's participation on these threads

Sharing my opinions, just as you do. :)

It is odd that some people spend so much time and energy railing against something they shout from the roof tops does not exist.

But (the idea of) God does exist in one form or another in various human cultures, shaped and promoted by those cultures.

These cultural deities have a great deal to do with how we deal with reality, how we define marriage, how women are treated, or what constitutes conduct acceptable to such deities. They affect an awful lot of people, directly and indirectly.

[Cronos]

There are scarier religious thoughts out there -- the strangest are the Jains.

This was founded about 900 BC by Mahavira (though he is supposed to be only the 21st in the line of Tirthankaras that stretch back to infinity. They believe that there is no creator god, that the universe has always existed and will always exist -- they argue with those who believe in a creation that it is not possible for something to be created out of nothing.

in their religious view, when you die, you get reincarnated. If you are good, you go higher. You can even become a god like Indra or Varuna, but the gods too die and reincarnate, and they can't do anything about your eventual faith, so praying to them is senseless.

But if you escape this cycle of reincarnation, you go to a higher plane (you become an Adinath). In that higher plane, the Adinath don't care or know or think or remember anything about the lower plan. But this is not heaven as the adinath cease to exist. They have vanquished death, suffering, thought, everything. The supreme point for these is oblivion.

Buddhism took this and softened it quite a bit (Hinayana Buddhism, the older form as practised in Sri Lanka) or a lot (Mahayana Buddhism with it's sub-forms Tibetan, Zen, etc.)

[kosta50]

Since Free-Rebublic is a pro-God site....why are you here?

I am not against God, so I don't understand your question. I am here for the same reasopn (I hope) as you are: to share your opinions on various subjects. I happen to like religious topics, and have some background on it.

Obviously I disagree some opinions and claims of others on the subject, and that's what discussion on an open forum is all about. This is not a goold-ole-boy's club where everyone is patting each other on the back. If that's what you want, stay on Caucus threads.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

if free will does exist, then us being instruments of God...

lol. Double predestination means we are instruments of God.

Neither you nor I nor anyone here can open Kosta's eyes. That's the work of the Holy Spirit.

Our job is to preach the Gospel to all men, confident that those who have received new ears and new eyes from God will know the truth and believe.

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." -- Proverbs 20:12

---

"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65

[Cronos]

Metmom: I didn’t *fail* Catholicism

See Met, Catholicism staunchly says that Jesus Christ IS God. We may take varied opinions on other matters, but the fundamental on this is clear -- if one doesn't accept Jesus as God, then bye-bye.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Vade retro satana

That's pathetic.

[kosta50]

"Inspired by God" doesn't mean God was a cheerleader for the writers of Scripture. It means the word of God was authored by God

Inspired by God refers to the human author being motivated and moved to write about his faith, not the divine authoring of the book.

Two thousand years of Christianity states that fact to be true.

Other religions have been around for just as long.. Longevity is not a measure of truth.

But that's something you say you don't believe now. Was your former church in error?

I said I don't know. To me it is not real.

Hundreds of witnesses say otherwise

Thousands of witnesses "saw" the sun "dancing" and "falling" towards earth in Fatima in 1917. It never happened.

[kosta50]

If one agrees in an "actively interested God" as opposed to a "bye,bye, I'm outta here God", then the actively interested God can use humans as tools, so someone's opinions are the TOOL that makes someone lose or find faith. Hence that tools actions signify God's will

That's precisely what Islamic terrorists claim when they blow up an Israeli family in a pizza shop or when they kill 3,000 people in Twin Towers.

It is a pretentious and potentially dangerous mindset, in my opinion, to assume to be God's tool, doing supposedly God's will.

[Cronos]

Dr. E: Neither you nor I nor anyone here can open Kosta's eyes. That's the work of the Holy Spirit.

See, caww -- now this is Kosta's point in On the other hand, if someone's opinions can make someone lose or find faith, then it is man, not God, who determines other man's salvation or perdition, which is not what Christians believe. Rather, they would say it is God's will. What do you say? Who determines if you should believe, God or man? --> if we take the hyper-Calvinist view, as represented by Dr. E's post here, then there is no point in preaching, teaching, spreading the Good News. ooops, wait a minute, Jesus Himself said to spread the Good News.

So it seems that calvinism denies Christ's words...

And if one takes Dr. E's point of view, then Kosta's statement is a Calvinist statement.

[Cronos]

step back, Dr.E

Good night.

[Cronos]

step back, Dr.E

Good night.