The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[metmom]

1 Corinthians 1:17-31 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

[presently no screen name]

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say,....?

EXACTLY!

[presently no screen name]

The Tanakh was not authored by God. Neither (expressly) was Luke. Or Revelation. Now what do you have?

Matt 22:29 "Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."

[metmom]

Ouch!

[boatbums]

Produce the Pauline writings that prove the Trinity. I have challenged the antiCatholics a number of times to do so and they have sadly failed.

Don't bother, Dr.E., he has been shown numerous times Paul's conclusive belief and consistent teaching of the both the deity of Jesus Christ and the triune nature of God, yet he still says they have sadly failed. I doubt very seriously that even if his own Pope were to show him the same, he would believe it.

[Cronos]

1 John 2:22

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

[Cronos]

Yes, it is true that Presbyterians hate Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists

The Presbyterians really hate the guts of anyone who does not toe the Calvinist line and say that Calvinism = Christianity, that's what they believe and repeat saying "Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel." Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979. and "Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression." B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956. The Presbyterians hate you Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists etc. as much as they hate Catholics/Orthodox and it's obvious in their posts that they initially hide it, but the bile comes out.

[Cronos]

Thanks for confirming that Luther never taught double predestination.

[Cronos]

Which hobby horse? I'm just posting links from the OPC's own website where they say that Pentecostals and Methodists are "damnable heretics" and make a mistake in salvation.

I'm just posting what the Presbyterians themselves have said about Pentecostals that they consider Pentecostals to be the same as Catholics.

i'm just posting what the Presbyterians themselves say that they think "calvinism=Christianity".

This is out of their own mouths..

[Cronos]

ABout the Presbyterians we read in Isaiah

Isaiah 32:6 For fools speak folly, their hearts are bent on evil: They practice ungodliness and spread error concerning the LORD; the hungry they leave empty and from the thirsty they withhold water.

and in Ezekiel

Ezekiel 13:3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!

This is condemning the falseness of the Calvinist legalistic mind.

[Cronos]

Perhaps it’s actually the Calvinists who seem to hate Paul because 1 Corinthians 11:23–31 and 1 Corinthians 10:16–17 point out the True Presence in the Eucharist....

[presently no screen name]

“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God.

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God’s Church on matters of faith and morals-——this is what all must give..”

This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”

“He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-——questions of religion-——to an authority located in Rome.”

“So if God [via Rome] declares that the Blessed Virgin was conceived Immaculate, or that there is a Purgatory, or that the Holy Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, shall we say, “I am not sure about that. I must examine it for myself; I must see whether it is true, whether it is Scriptural?”

— Henry G. Graham, “What Faith Really Means”, (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )

“The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question.” “The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: - John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter xxiii. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )

We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: [considered abrogated by later canon law]

WOW!!

CONTROL, INTIMIDATION, BONDAGE!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Christ is truly present spiritually in the Lord’s Supper.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

That’s one man’s opinion. Just like another person, aruanan, disagrees with that opinion and agrees that Luther did believe in double predestination.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We’ve witnessed how even when presented with the evidence in black and white Roman Catholic apologists will simply close their eyes and say “I don’ see it.”

And I believe them, considering that God alone gives eyes to see.

[Cronos]

Xone: Luther if he believed in double predestination, never taught it and it isn't, as has been shown, part of the Lutheran Confessions
Cronos: Thanks for confirming that Luther never taught double predestination.
Dr. E: That’s one man’s opinion. Just like another person, aruanan, disagrees with that opinion and agrees that Luther did believe in double predestination.

Valid enough, it is opinion regarding what Luther did or did not teach about double predestination. The current LCMS and WELS rejects DOUBLE predestination, but that is a different point.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What do I have? Apparently a conversation with someone who seems to say that God is not the source of scripture. Which means you are proving every point being put against you.

LOLOL.

If THAT is representative of the Roman Catholic Church, no wonder so many categorize it as a cult.

"They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man." -- Job 12:25

[Cronos]

Dr. e: Christ is truly present spiritually in the Lord’s Supper

And that is where the disagreement lies. Orthodox, Orientals, Catholics, Assyrians, Lutherans and even Anglicans believe that this is not just a spiritual presence.

You may believe what you wish, that is your choice, but yet, if one reads (John 6:26-72) especially (John 6:52-72), it is impossible to interpret what Christ is saying as a metaphor or as just spiritual. The words used demand a literal interpretation -- "eat" and "drink". Because Jesus starts off describing manna (John 6:31-32) and then talks of giving food that will be really eaten.

Furthermore the very language he uses "to drink someone's blood and eat someone's flesh" -- as I said, even in Hindi, in a vegetarian society, one uses the ultimate threat of violence which is "Mein tera khoon pie jaonga" - "I will drink your blood". If you take it that Christ was speaking spiritually, you would then understand it that Christ was promising eternal life to those who committed violence against Christ.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Rome presumes to conduct bloody re-sacrifices of Christ, against the word of God.

Unholy.

[Cronos]

Thanks!! I’ve cut that out and will keep it for my trip there. Have you ever been there? One of the strange things about Greece is the cuisine — don’t get me wrong, it’s lovely, especially the street food — I dream of gyros and souvlaki. But the alcohol is stinky!!! ;-P like ouzo or retsina — I couldn’t even drink ouzo as the aniseed smell was overpowering!! I like feta cheese in a salad, but it’s kinda salty for me. Other good stuff is tiganeeta, kolokothanota, and something with feta cheese and spinach. mmm...